[thuja]

I have been interested by recent events in France, Indonesia and Argentina showing massive riots/protests having to do with underlying issues of poverty, social class and economic injustice. Though the riots in France also concern religious and racial intolerance, I think that class issues underlie all of these people's concerns.

We are moving steadily towards a world wide recessionary period due to high energy costs, coupled with the increasing effects of globalization "flattening" the world by reducing high paid first world jobs and replacing them with low paid third world jobs.

As we move into this new time, I believe class issues will increase accordingly. The riots in France are shocking because one thinks of France as a socialist country that takes care of its poor. But with over 10 percent unemployment, and over 25 % unemployment for those under 26, there is a great deal of anger and free time amongst their poor.

As inflation increases throughout the world due to high energy prices and its secondary effects, the middle class will get poorer and the poor will become destitute. As a great many jobs are lost during this recessionary period, we may find a very large populous with time on its hand and a lot of anger at the state of the world. Class conflict, riots, and outright insurrection is more likely in the years to come.

As someone who visits this site frequently, I also see the undercurrent of class issues affecting this group of people. Those who have the means can buy the eco-house with solar panels and invest heavily in energy and metals while the poorer bemoan their debt and general lack of assets in preparation for the change.

I think class will be at the core of some of the very radical changes that will be taking place in the near future. I am interested in what others think about this.

[jaws]

France is the perfect example of the hypocrisy of socialism. The socialists gave these poor kids free housing and a free income, and then they rigged the system so they would never have a chance to make a life for themselves. The unions and government bureaucrats control the system to their own ends and it is the poor, unskilled workers who pay the price.

Socialism destroyed their lives. It did not help them at all except force them into humiliating living conditions with the whole world telling them they have nothing to complain about since they have socialism.

[thuja]

ok Jaws- so how about how great free market capitalism has been for the south americans- man they're living high on the hog there.

[mgibbons19]

perhaps it illustrates that both systems are problematic from a "we luv the people" perspective.

I do not listen to those who are idealistic one way or the other - I don't have faith in either system. I am interested in how markets efficiently distribute, and I am interested in how management can improve life for the losers, or regulation can subvert some of the worst excesses of markets.

Those who confidently believe that human ingenuity and markets will solve this situation for us strike me as at least as gullible as those still fulminating for the workers' revolution and the era of peace and propserity it will bring.

[UIUCstudent01]

This is strange.

I hear anti-globalization riots...

Then I hear to blame it on socialism...

Strange world..

Just what are THEY rioting for specifically?

Anyone have their own words?

I did a quick google-research and got some 'reasons':


BBC
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')umours that the tear gas was thrown by the police into a place of worship fuelled the unrest.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'o')k Jaws- so how about how great free market capitalism has been for the south americans- man they're living high on the hog there.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UIUCstudent01', 'T')his is strange.

I hear anti-globalization riots...

Then I hear to blame it on socialism...

Strange world..

Just what are THEY rioting for specifically?

Anyone have their own words?

[UIUCstudent01]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UIUCstudent01', 'T')his is strange.

I hear anti-globalization riots...

Then I hear to blame it on socialism...

Strange world..

Just what are THEY rioting for specifically?

Anyone have their own words?

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jaws', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'o')k Jaws- so how about how great free market capitalism has been for the south americans- man they're living high on the hog there.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UIUCstudent01', 'W')hat economic restrictions are there?

[Colorado-Valley]

There are too many people in the world and not enough jobs for them all.

Neoliberalism has weighted a lot of the world's wealth toward the privileged class and the U.S. and Europe are grabbing the world's resources and privatizing them for their benefit.

No wonder people are angry.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', 'T')here are too many people in the world and not enough jobs for them all.

[thuja]

jaws- I would agree that socialist policies can sometimes have a deadening effects on growth and individual entrepreneurship in exchange for a greater social safety net. But free market capitalism has created the widest gap in wealth in human history. Some have made out like bandits while the majority have sunk to subsistence living, and many of these are caught up in cycles of starvation, sweat shop labor and wars for dwindling resources that are used up by first world inhabitants.

Is this your notion of a good and prosperous world political system? Growth based economic/political systems are the subtext for everything we're talking about on this site. We are reaching the limits to the growth forever/ free-market . It will be effectlvely over once we no longer have the ever increasing storehouses of fuel to run it. So how about switching from supporting a growth to a sustainability ? Will that also include the philosophy of "To the victor go the spoils?"

[jaws]

You're avoiding the body of the problem. Nothing can be done about inequality! Absolutely nothing. People earn what they can earn, which is what other people think they are worth to them on the market. And guess what, this has always been getting better in capitalist countries. Big landowners in Europe still employed servants in the 1950's. In America many of the poor were employed as house servants for the wealthy right until the 20th century. It was the increase in the productivity of their labor which reduced inequality, and this was only made possible by economic liberty and the capital accumulation it fosters.

We can't reduce inequality beyond the natural inequality of man and our productivity as a civilization. Any attempt to do so just creates misery and hopelessness.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '.').........But free market capitalism has created the widest gap in wealth in human history.........

[thuja]

Cube- we're just not on the same page here. Just imagine one person born on the south side of chicago with poor parents in a two bedroom efficiaency. He goes to a bad inner city school where he's plagued by drug dealers, gang bangers and overstrapped teachers. He can make it if he ignores all of this, applies himself and gets good enough grades to get a scholarship to a college and then goes on to get a graduate degree so he can be a professional.

Compare that to a child born of upper middleclass parents who send him to good schools and then provide him with a trust fun through college and beyond. They have friends who run businesses and get him internships and then good paying jobs.

Who has it easier? Yes a poor person can rise, but the oddsare stacked against him. Is that not self-evident?

And no- I'm not jealous. I'm one of the lucky ones- And yes-I've used my advantages to get ahead. Which makes it only more necessary to help those who are less fortunate.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', '.')...
Who has it easier? Yes a poor person can rise, but the oddsare stacked against him. Is that not self-evident?
....

[DesertBear2]

It is naive to think that predatory power centers only from government power. It's quite common for private economic forces to suppress economic and personal freedoms. And it's quite common in many parts of the world for private wealth to control the government for their own profit.

And looking back at US economic history, the government regulators have generally played a positive role in preserving the fairness and vitality of the markets and the general economy. In fact, it is often the larger economic players who demand government regulation because the shoddy operators are creating problems and giving the business a bad name. The SEC was created out of a stock market environment that was so predatory that the very health of the markets was undermined.

Let's not even touch on the issue of environmental destruction by private business with complete denial of responsibility for damages. In this case, only the government has power to set standards- and private business expects government to set such standards that apply to all parties equally.

Too much regulation, of course, will stifle the vitality of the private economy. It's a matter of wise and limited regulatory powers.

[thuja]

Hey Cube-I will grant you that there is more class mobility in this country than in many-and I think that's a primary reason people move here. Higher education is still a doorway to modest wealth and many of the racial, gender and religious barriers have been lessened in the last 40 years. So I agree with you on that score.

However, the reasons you state for lack of class mobility in the third world I can't agree with....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')
Now lets go thru that again but imagine you grew up in a third world nation. It would be impossible for the little guy to do that. Why? Because the system is so corrupt everything works on bribes and "connections". So you weren't born into a wealthy family with connections? Sorry you don't get a construction contract. End of story. You are forever doomed to never rise above a common laborer.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', 'T')here are too many people in the world and not enough jobs for them all.

Neoliberalism has weighted a lot of the world's wealth toward the privileged class and the U.S. and Europe are grabbing the world's resources and privatizing them for their benefit.

No wonder people are angry.