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Peak in a couple of days?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby DamienJasper » Wed 26 Oct 2005, 16:06:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'H')ere is what Kenneth Deffeyes wrote in Time October 31 issue

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
It's the End of Oil

World oil production is about to reach a peak and go into its final decline. For years, a handful of petroleum geologists, including me, have been predicting peak oil before 2007, but in an era of cheap oil, few people listened. Lately, several major oil companies seem to have got the message. One of Chevron's ads says the world is currently burning 2 bbl. of oil for every barrel of new oil discovered. ExxonMobil says 1987 was the last year that we found more oil worldwide than we burned. Shell reports that it will expand its Canadian oil-sands operations but elsewhere will focus on finding natural gas and not oil. It sounds as though Shell is kissing the oil business goodbye. M. King Hubbert, a geophysicist, correctly predicted in 1956 that oil production in the U.S. would peak in the early 1970s--the moment now known as "Hubbert's Peak." I believe world oil production is about to reach a similar peak.

Finding oil is like fishing in a pond. After several months, you notice that you are not catching as many fish. You could buy an expensive fly rod--new technology. Or you could decide that you have already caught most of the fish in the pond. Although increased oil prices (which ought to spur investment in oil production) and new technology help, they can't work magic. Recent discoveries are modest at best. The oil sands in Canada and Venezuela are extensive, but the Canadian operations to convert the deposits into transportable oil consume large amounts of natural gas, which is in short supply.

And technology cannot eliminate the difficulty Hubbert identified: the rate of producing oil depends on the fraction of oil that has not yet been produced. In other words, the fewer the fish in the pond, the harder it is to catch one. Peak production occurs at the halfway point. Based on the available data about new oil fields, there are 2,013 billion bbl. of total producible oil. Adding up the oil produced from the birth of the industry until today, we will reach the dreaded 1,006.5-billion-bbl. halfway mark late this year. For two years, I've been predicting that world oil production would reach its peak on Thanksgiving Day 2005. Today, with high oil prices pushing virtually all oil producers to pull up every barrel they can sweat out of the ground, I think it might happen even earlier.

Kenneth Deffeyes is the author of Beyond Oil (Farrar, Straus & Giroux; 224 pages)


There is also this meaningless counterpoint.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Oil Is Here to Stay

The "Peak Oil" theory fits nicely on a cocktail napkin. Its curve looks like this: Colonel Edwin Drake starts pumping crude in Pennsylvania in 1859. We've been pumping faster and faster ever since. Sooner or later, on this finite planet of ours, it just has to run out. U.S. production peaked in the 1970s. Global production will soon be on the downside of the same dismal curve.

Nonsense. Technology and politics--not geology--determine how much we pump and what it costs.

America currently consumes about 7 billion bbl. of oil a year. When production in Persian Gulf fields was ramped up by 12 billion bbl. a year in the 1960s, global prices collapsed. That made it politically painless for the U.S. to ban almost all new drilling off the Florida and California coasts and then in much of Alaska. With oil, as with textiles, domestic production peaked because others began producing the same stuff cheaper, while we contrived to make our production more expensive. Today Alaska contains 18 billion bbl. of off-limits crude. We've embargoed at least an additional 30 billion bbl. beneath our coastal waters. And we could fuel many of our heavy trucks and delivery vehicles for a decade with the 20 billion bbl. worth of natural gas we've placed off limits in federal Rocky Mountain lands.

Outside our borders, Alberta's tar sands contain 180 billion bbl. recoverable with current technology, and Calgarians are pumping that oil today. A total of several trillion barrels of oil soak the sands of Canada and Venezuela alone--a century's worth at the current global rate of consumption. Then there are methane hydrates. The U.S contains some 30 trillion bbl. worth of those frozen hydrocarbons off the shores of Alaska, the continental coasts and under the Rockies. There's little doubt they too can be extracted economically. If we try, we'll certainly find cheap ways to transform North America's 1 trillion bbl. worth of coal into crude as well. General Patton's Third Army completed its roll across Europe on coal liquefied with German technology.

The price of oil has always fluctuated. In inflation-adjusted dollars, it was higher in the early '80s than it is today. Extraction technologies continue to improve much faster than supply horizons recede. We've got the right know-how and the right planet. What we lack is the political will.

Peter Huber is the co-author, with Mark Mills, of The Bottomless Well (Basic Books; 214 pages)


So it's true what they say about POers and counterpoints. Simply won't accept them. Again, Michael Lynch was right about being able to produce 80+ million a day and Campbell, well, wasn't. I don't see why they aren't even given a chance.

Thanks again Eli.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby DamienJasper » Wed 26 Oct 2005, 16:08:59

Also, do you buy what Ruppert said a couple of days ago? That were are 'mere weeks' away from an economic collapse similar to the Great Depression?
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby venky » Wed 26 Oct 2005, 17:14:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DamienJasper', 'A')lso, do you buy what Ruppert said a couple of days ago? That were are 'mere weeks' away from an economic collapse similar to the Great Depression?


Wouldn't pay too much attention to Ruppert, makes a different doomsday prediction every week it seems to me.

I dont a peak in world oil production is possible this year from what I've read, unless the numbers have been fudged, especially in the middle east.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby Daryl » Wed 26 Oct 2005, 22:10:53

Don't worry about Peak Oil. I'm sure something else will kill us off before it has a chance.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby DamienJasper » Thu 27 Oct 2005, 02:14:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DamienJasper', 'A')lso, do you buy what Ruppert said a couple of days ago? That were are 'mere weeks' away from an economic collapse similar to the Great Depression?


Wouldn't pay too much attention to Ruppert, makes a different doomsday prediction every week it seems to me.

I dont a peak in world oil production is possible this year from what I've read, unless the numbers have been fudged, especially in the middle east.


Thanks.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby MonteQuest » Thu 27 Oct 2005, 02:33:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '5')-10 trillion tons of coal dont exist I suppose. We're not even turning coal into diesel yet so I doubt we're close to the end of peak hydrocarbons.

What is important? Peak sweet light? peak sour? Peak fossil fuel?


For all intent and purposes, no they do not exist. They are just like the oil in the earth that will never be pumped. The total world recoverable reserves are about 1 trillion tons. 60 years to peak coal at current consumption, so I'd say we are very close to peak recoverable hydrocarbons. And if we start converting coal to liquids, that peak comes even sooner.

What is important? Economic cost of production including "externalized costs", CO2, environmental impact, etc.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby DamienJasper » Thu 27 Oct 2005, 20:54:57

Oddly enough, I just saw the 1993 version of "Germinal" today. Just worth noting. The castration part still gives me the shivers.

Thanks for input again, Eli in particular, but also MonteQuest.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby Ludi » Thu 27 Oct 2005, 21:10:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')What is important? Economic cost of production including "externalized costs", CO2, environmental impact, etc.


Butis environmental impact important? I mean to people's choices and actions, not in actuality. Will people even care about "the environment," which is always this thing far away, not their own backyard, their own future? I don't see "the environment" becoming important to people in any meaningful way...:(
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby Armageddon » Fri 28 Oct 2005, 00:10:40

economic collapse will occur long before peak happens. The more i have reading and studying about the economy, its on the brink. This huge debt is unsistainable for the american economy. collapse is immenant. When it starts, nothing will stop it. not even the plunge protection team.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby DamienJasper » Fri 28 Oct 2005, 00:21:47

See, guys with information like that, I don't see how you can tell me to just stop worrying.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby MonteQuest » Fri 28 Oct 2005, 00:24:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')What is important? Economic cost of production including "externalized costs", CO2, environmental impact, etc.


Butis environmental impact important? I mean to people's choices and actions, not in actuality. Will people even care about "the environment," which is always this thing far away, not their own backyard, their own future? I don't see "the environment" becoming important to people in any meaningful way...:(


No, not the environment per se, but the cost in dollars to deal with the impacts. I can't see us just going the way of China today. 8O
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby killJOY » Fri 28 Oct 2005, 05:34:48

Peak oil is natural. It is nothing to worry about.



It's the damn deluded apes that eat the stuff I'm worried about.
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby stepka » Sun 30 Oct 2005, 01:29:50

Deffeyes said Thanksgiving Day, 2005. But maybe it's already here. This just in:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')xxon said hurricanes slashed U.S. production volumes by 5 percent from a year ago, while global daily production slipped to 2.45 million barrels of oil equivalent from 2.51 million barrels. By the end of the year, it will cost the company about $100 million after taxes, the company estimated.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby stepka » Sun 30 Oct 2005, 01:30:21

Sorry, here's the link to the above mentioned article:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051027/D8DGL2502.html
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby DamienJasper » Sun 30 Oct 2005, 22:19:06

Oh good lord. Why does every post turn into a "Peak Oil is going to happen and here's the proof" type thing? No kidding.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby grabby » Wed 16 Nov 2005, 02:52:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'm')an i love gardening- big bushy kale, yummy sweet thick carrots, chunky russets; just get me out back... :-D


Bushy kale is great how close do you plant kale together? How you cook it? There is life after peak oil....Squash and tomatoes are good too.
Last edited by grabby on Wed 08 Feb 2006, 23:19:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Peak in a couple of days?

Postby thuja » Wed 16 Nov 2005, 12:39:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grabby', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'm')an i love gardening- big bushy kale, yummy sweet thick carrots, chunky russets; just get me out back... :-D


Bushy kale is great how close do you plant kale together? How you cook it? There is life after peak oil....Squarsh and tomaters are good too.

My only problem with gardens is large hungry neighbors with guns who did not plant a garden. I think the farmers won't be around long after, the city folks will head there first.

At work someone was talking and said, their religion syays they have to store at least a years supply of food, and they should do fine in a proble, and the guy asked another worker,
what are your plans?
He said, I'll do fine and I don't even have to store food!
And the other guy said, Howz that?
And the guy said "We got Moremens on our block and I got a gun.

It wasnt' too funny for me, but it made me think, without law enforcement I don't think the good people will survive without help.


Thinking about neighbors with guns thieving your kale is a tad bit too apocalyptic for me- and if it does happen, it will be decades down the road. However, food production could get tight. If you're in a poor neighborood where people are already squeezed, you will be subject to gas syphoning, house burglaries and car theft as we move in to rough economic times. They'll sell your ipod to buy twinkies and wonderbread though. What the hell are they gonna do with kale? They can't smoke it...
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