[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hen, we could even live happily and harmoniously in anarchy if we choose.

[Jake_old]

Good Post EC

But MrBill

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell, yes, I think that many countries with elected governments and market economies have been far more successful than Cuba.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')nce we cross that line it becomes a case of criticise the government and break the law go to jail.

Add to that biometric ID cards, the lack of private ballot on election day, the consumerism propaganda machine and you have something to keep an eye on.

This situation comes about because capitalism, inevitably, leads to ever more concentrated wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer individuals or families. We can see this just from the last 40 - 50 years.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', '
')Most people can't see how close that is to banning the argument that Government policy creates suicide bombers. (I'm not asking that you agree with that statement, just my right to think and speak it).

Once we cross that line it becomes a case of criticise the government and break the law go to jail.

[Jake_old]

MrBill

You have got me wrong

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')urely you see that communist China jails its opponents more than Canada does?

[Jake_old]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat reminds me of a thing they told me when I was little: you start by stealing a duro (5 pesetas coin, less than 5 euro cents/dollar cents/pence), and you end up robbing banks. The fact is, most people that have ever stolen a duro never became professional thieves, and much less robbed a bank.

[MrBill]

I agree. An open, hoest conversation is better than slinging mud and name calling.

As I told Doly, I am a fiscal conservative, social liberal.

My biggest complaint about business/the right/conservatives/etc. are that they have never bothered to lay-out their ideas and attempt to sell them to their critics. They have been very meek about the benefits of trade and poor at explaining the virtues of the market. They have surrendered the battle ground for ideas to 'the left' who argue more with their hearts than with their minds. This is too bad.

I think that better communication of important ideas would highlight the common ground between the two sides. Change the argument from 'you can have this social system or that social system' into 'you can have any social system you want so long as it can pay for itself and is sustainable'?

A healthy, strong economy is better able to take care of its poor and infirm than a crapped-out economy where there is nothing of worth left to tax or even steal. However, of course, every corporate and political scandal just makes the people suspicious of those in power so they distrust the system.

[Jake_old]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I think that better communication of important ideas would highlight the common ground between the two sides. Change the argument from 'you can have this social system or that social system' into 'you can have any social system you want so long as it can pay for itself and is sustainable'?

[dhfenton]

It's isn't that the system won't work; it's that the incompetance and corruption at the top pervert the system and cause it to breakdown.

Soviet Union is to Communism as W's "democracy" is to Capitalism.

Incompetant leadership causes the system to fail. If capitalism works so well; how come China owns the United States right now (quite literally)? As China becomes more progressive, their communist model is winning. Communism does not have to equal dictatorship; which has been the problem with most communist regimes to date. If a truly enlighted and representative communist state were to evolve it might be the most successful the world has ever seen. I think China has a chance at that, if they can address their human rights issues. If they don't improve on human rights, I don't see how they can succeed in the long term. They will be the supreme economic power on the planet for decades to come; but the discontent will continue to erode at the state.

[richardmmm]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dhfenton', 'I')t's isn't that the system won't work; it's that the incompetance and corruption at the top pervert the system and cause it to breakdown.

Soviet Union is to Communism as W's "democracy" is to Capitalism.

Incompetant leadership causes the system to fail. If capitalism works so well; how come China owns the United States right now (quite literally)? As China becomes more progressive, their communist model is winning. Communism does not have to equal dictatorship; which has been the problem with most communist regimes to date. If a truly enlighted and representative communist state were to evolve it might be the most successful the world has ever seen. I think China has a chance at that, if they can address their human rights issues. If they don't improve on human rights, I don't see how they can succeed in the long term. They will be the supreme economic power on the planet for decades to come; but the discontent will continue to erode at the state.

[Jake_old]

It can't just be about leadership.

Leaders only have power because they are allowed to have it, even if it is thought to be the military, there is always a possibility that the military could mutiny.

Theres always a possibility that consumers will stop borrowing and consuming.

Likewise Americans could go towards a bloody civil war if things got so bad, just because they have guns.

For example

I often feel frustrated that the corporate media don't go in depth into very serious issues, but I realise this is an instrument of power, by denying me knowledge as it were.

Whats really hard is trying to discuss that idea with your average joe in the pub.

The students at Tiananmen Sqr (sp?) felt the same, their government didn't need to use such a complex propaganda machine, they just shot at them(After a day or so of just hoping they would go away). Although effective in the short term, it doesn't look like a long term solution. At least to me.

I'm trying to say that it is easier to imagine the Chinese having a change of ideological direction, purely because they know their enemy(who's in power) and they know they will have to fight for change.

We don't know who's in power, we just know who we think is in power. In fact their isn't a group of people in power, but an idea which we all buy into, even if we hate it.

My political slogan would be

Stop watchin telly.

So no one would know who I was

[seldom_seen]

Industrialism, whether of the capitalist or socialist coloration, is the basic tyrant of the modern age.

-ed abbey

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '[')url=http://www.zombietime.com/red-color_news_soldier/]Red Color News Soldier[/url]

Whats interesting is that at an event held by someone WHO WAS THERE and saw the horros of Communism, there were still Berkley idiots* who would promote those beliefs!

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'I')n "my" view, anyone can make it to the top and everyone is entitled to what they want to work to achieve.

Roughly speaking.

[Windmills]

The USSR and China never were communist. They devolved into socialist dictatorships before they even came close to anything like communism. The leaders of those revolutions merely hijacked popular sentiments about communism and used public support to install their own regimes that were mere facades of communism.

Commune-ism is a very idealistic form of living that relies on the best qualities of humans being active all the time. In reality, that just doesn't work. Humans are a blink away from animals and can't function at such a civilized level for indefinite periods of time. True communism--of which there has never been an example beyond perhaps some small native nations, tribes, and so forth--may never be possible because it is so opposed to real human drives and behaviors. It breaks down very easily when it scales up to larger populations. It's another reason why large scale communism only has *ever* existed on Star Trek.

Another point people seem to miss is that communism and democracy are not mutually exclusive. In fact, many *real* communist societies that existed in the past had large democratic elements within them. You can mix and match all kinds of forms of government with all kinds of economic systems.

As for the wonderful world of capitalism, this site wouldn't exist if capitalism worked so well to ensure the future. Capitalism is a dog-eat-dog sytem, a survival of the fittest, just a human form of animal economics. The result is exactly the same as we see in the wild, too, when a species gets too successful: overpopulation, overconsumption, environmental destruction, and die-back. I certainly appreciate the idea of everyone pulling their own weight, but I'm sure we can all take a look around this wonderful, perfect world of ours and come up with a massive list of the ways capitalism has done some real damage.

As was mentioned before, practically every system has its merits on paper. It's the human factor that destroys each and every one, every time. A system needs to be created that is designed to protect us from ourselves. Who knows what that would be like. I can only guess...maybe a less dense population in which people stay more out of each other's business would be the best way to raise humans on Earth. Who knows. Many of the current mixed-capitalist-socialist-democracies like the US and European countries might not be so bad if they had any foresight, self-control, self-sacrifice, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...

[drew]

Kronstadt naval base-the original sin!

Come on who knows what I'm talking about?

No googling!!

You neither SPECOP007!
(I already know you won't have a clue, clueless)

Drew

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'I')n "my" view, anyone can make it to the top and everyone is entitled to what they want to work to achieve.

Roughly speaking.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('drew', 'K')ronstadt naval base-the original sin!

Come on who knows what I'm talking about?

No googling!!

You neither SPECOP007!
(I already know you won't have a clue, clueless)

Drew

[drew]

Thankyou for rising to the bait (ithink)
I am not a commie, nor are you, but you should try to know some facts on things before going on rightwing rants.

I have read parts of 'the communist manifesto' perhaps you should too.
It is mostly about economics, not politics.

As for the ussr, it was a horrible very murderous regime very loosely based on communism. You were right on th 'evil' part.

The original sin was when lenin and his henchmen in the army turned on the sailors stationed at kronstadt. They were turned on because they were pushing for a return to the DEMOCRACY that the revolution was begun with. Lenin knew the gig was up unless he put down the insurrection-hence the original sin.

I studied the soviet union under a prof who lived in ST Petersburg for 5 years. He is certainly not a commie.

If you really want to open your eyes to the evil of stalin and the ussr try reading some solzhenitzin, or EricH Fromm's excellent work 'the anatomy of Human destructiveness' . This last work would certainly shed some light on what is wrong with political leaders from your homeland as well as nations like Germany And Russia.

It's late, going to bed. ( and I dont care about my shitty spelling)

Drew

[Jake_old]

Windmills

When discussing Communism it is important that we all understand exactly what communism is.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ommune-ism is a very idealistic form of living that relies on the best qualities of humans being active all the time. In reality, that just doesn't work. Humans are a blink away from animals and can't function at such a civilized level for indefinite periods of time. True communism--of which there has never been an example beyond perhaps some small native nations, tribes, and so forth--may never be possible because it is so opposed to real human drives and behaviors. It breaks down very easily when it scales up to larger populations. It's another reason why large scale communism only has *ever* existed on Star Trek.