[turmoil]

people 'bought' into the system a century ago because of it's propaganda

The problem is that inherent in propaganda are half truths.

Democracy was brutally injured when corperations gained the rights of citizens in the face of Lincoln's warnings.

yes it's true

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', ' ')What about a guy I've talked to downtown here a couple of times, on disability and Section 8 because of "stress" who hangs out and shoots the bull? He doesn't work, seems perfectly able to, is just onto a good scam.

[I_Like_Plants]

Ludi you got it exactly. The guy probably can't work a regular job, and I was no condemning him.

In fact, if you agree with Jim Merkel on this whole mess, sponging off of the system is the most patriotic thing you can do, takes more money away from the military/industrial/oil/ecocide complex.

And I'm self-employed also, have been for years, although I got into the work and spend cycle and now have to work pretty hard to get rid of debt I've built up. Working for yourself doesn't necessarily free you, in fact most people who become self-employed end up working so hard they're glad to quit and go back to working for someone else - this is the real reason most new businesses fail.

I want to get where I can work a LOT less, and need little enough money that I can do what I like more than what I have to.

[shakespear1]

Ludi

Your 100% right. TODAY, work is 100 % stress. Stress if you will be laid off, won't be able to pay the morgage, cann't send the kids to college, etc.

You look at the natives in Amazn Jungle and you don't see that in their eyes. Who has it better?

[Doly]

Don't ask me why (I always have trouble answering this question) but I hang around a lot of these "escaped slaves", as you call them.

My impression? They're the first ones that are going to be in serious trouble when TSHTF. They're generally unreliable and most of them would be unable to grow a garden or any other simple survival activity. And very often they've got drug problems or are alcoholics. They manage now because they are surrounded by people who are richer than themselves. If/when the middle class find themselves growing gardens and making their own clothes, these "escaped slaves" are going to be mostly dead.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with what you call "the system". I think any economic model that doesn't give enough time to people to educate their own children is basically flawed. But I don't think that getting out of the system in this way is any kind of solution. It's more like part of the problem, actually.

[Ludi]

I Like Plants, you're right, most self-employed people work very hard, longer hours than they work for other people. I often get paid less now than I did when I worked for other people, but for me, it's been worth it.

Doly, I agree, most people who can't make it in the system are suffering from various illnesses and disorders. It's not likely they will do well when times get even tougher.

Presently, I don't mind people being deadbeats and living off the work of others, though they really aren't taking enough to have much of an effect on the military industrial complex. But I'd rather pay for them than pay for bombing people in another country.

There is a substantial population who are opting out of the system, joining the intentional communities movement, Walk Away movement, neo-tribalism, primitivists, etc. These people usually make a point to learn survival skills, and they should do well. Many if not most of them are PO aware.

[I_Like_Plants]

Yes, the "escaped slaves" that are noticeable are the mentally ill homeless. But I think there are even more who have opted out, and you have to look sharp to see them, because most don't look homeless.

[The_Virginian]

Ludi,

Thanks for the pep talk.

I too am headed "my way" for the forseable future>>>>an escaped Slave from two states.

the "system" is in for some shocks..the sooner we learn to do without, the better we fare in the long run.

[pup55]

It's all about reproduction.

Every society has its way of establishing a social structure so as to attract desirable mates, so as to raise healty offspring and pass down "desirable" genetic material to the next generation.

In our society, it is pretty well engrained by about the 7th grade that a big house and cool car is an indicator of status and desirability for mating purposes. This is not unique to the US. English literature is full of this sort of thing. In Asia, and Africa, a system of matchmaking/arranged marriages/dowry has developed to accomplish the same thing. The advertisers picked up on this years ago.

So in short, the reason most people do not take to the streets (or the woods, for that matter) is that if they do, they will not be able to get a date.

Of course, there will always be an element of "animal magnetism", pheromones, physical attributes, and to an extent, if you are really good looking (or good smelling, presumably) you will still be able to find a mate, but I must say, if my daughter starts dating street bums, we are going to have to have a talk, peak oil or not. You have some social stigma to overcome.

My own theory is this system has started to break down a little bit because of the availability of easy credit. It used to be, at least in the US, that you sort of had to have it together to be able to afford a big house and a cool car. You either had to be intelligent, or persuasive, or have some other ability that society rewarded you for. At the very least, you had to be kind of a nice, responsible guy, or the bank would not lend you the money. So, maybe for awhile, the system worked. Now, however, with easy credit, even an idiot can have a big house and a cool car. Therefore, there are a lot of incorrect signals being sent out, and people end up with inappropriate mates. I am sure if you track the divorce rate compared to the consumer debt since 1970, there would be a strong correlation, and people will obviously blame this on incresed pressures, two income families, etc. but I hypothesize that some amount of this is due to bad choosing of mates due to incorrect signals being sent out as to the desirability of a given jerk from a reproduction standpoint because they happen to have a given level of material posessions.

Incredibly, the availability of easy credit makes it possible to overcome some of the animal issues as well. A popular TV show, "Extreme Makeover" is based on the idea that with some amount of plastic surgery, which presumably you can also charge up on your credit card, you can overcome what nature gave you in order to attract a better mate. Talk about sending an incorrect signal!

Anyway, the above might make an interesting Master's thesis or Doctoral Dissertation if anybody cared to do research in to this matter.

[BrownDog]

Before I ever heard of Peak Oil, I had already started to make the connection between consumerism and what I called "voluntary slavery". It is so obvious to me that all this desire for new, better, bigger, etc. is only making us work harder and harder, but with diminishing returns. Or more to the point, that's what I saw when I looked in the mirror.

So when I decided to downsize my consumption, pay off my debts, that was the primary motivator. It has a nice benefit of helping prepare for upcoming changes...

[I_Like_Plants]

Yep it's the "consumer treadmill" or "capitalist treadmill" or as some call it, the "suburban treadmill" and people have been talking about getting off of it for the last 100 years, if you look up the literature. But with Peak Oil it's going to become obvious to even the more deeply brainwashed that it's a trap.

[eric_b]

Heh. Yeah. I'm one of those escaped slaves.

Suckas. You're all bought and sold. The best you can do is to be aware of this fact.
Most people aren't.

Not interested in playing the game, having kids, etc.

I'm just watching that mountain of shit gracefully arc towards the fan.

[Jack]

I was perusing the U.S Constitution, and came across this item:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1')3th. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

[SurvivalAcres]

The 2 million incarcerated slaves, err.. prisoners in prisons today might have an opinion about this.

I think slavery is already evident in this country and has always been with us. A great many laws are on the books supporting victimless crimes, which only serve to create more slaves, in service and profit to the State and the privately run corporations.

But I don't know the answers to your legal questions. However, you said $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y interpretation of this is that a person could be enslaved for a period of time, or permanently, if convicted of a crime.

[duke3522]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'I') was perusing the U.S Constitution, and came across this item:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')13th. Amendment
to the U.S. Constitution



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

[SurvivalAcres]

A related story posted just today - Slaves

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ept. 2003, "There are more slaves today than were seized from Africa in four centuries of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The modern commerce in humans rivals illegal drug trafficking in its global reach-and in the destruction of lives."- Andrew Cockburn
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm ... index.html

Statistics:

"Human trafficking is a form of modern-day slavery. Victims of human trafficking are young children, teenagers, men and women. Approximately 800,000 to 900,000 victims annually are trafficked across international borders world wide, and between 18,000 and 20,000 of those victims are trafficked into the U.S., according to the U.S. Department of State. Victims of human trafficking are subjected to force, fraud, or coercion, for the purpose of sexual exploitation or forced labor."

[SurvivalAcres]

US Slaves

I swear I didn't go looking for this stuff - but I just spotted another article on the US prison system.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he figures show that the United States has locked up more people than any other country: a half million more than China, which has a population five times greater than the U.S. Statistics reveal that the United States holds 25% of the world’s prison population, but only 5% of the world’s people.

[lotrfan55345]

When you go across the border to Canada or Mexico, they have prisoners asking you for you papers...

I'm sure they aren't getting payed.

[oiless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lotrfan55345', 'W')hen you go across the border to Canada or Mexico, they have prisoners asking you for you papers...

I'm sure they aren't getting payed.

[crow]

The modern idea behind slavery is very simple: make people you slaves without them knowing it.

ie; you're not a slave, you're a prisoner

or you're not a slave, you're just poor and a little down on your luck

or you're not a slave, you're just in debt over your head and cannot, with all the money you'll 'earn' in your lifetime, be able to repay such burdensome debts


Its all a matter of personnal perception and what lies you choose to believe.

Here's a question:

You're all shocked that the prisonners are treated like slaves? Now what will any of you do about it?

My bet; absolutely nothing. You're all quietly going to be content that the slaves in the prison is not you, and that you're not a slave because you're not in prison. All most of you have, is a small job with debts and being forced to pay exorbitant prices for your oil to the profit of the super-rich.