[bobbyald]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'a')ssuming evolution is correct, and it may not be, it doesn't really apply to people anymore because of our technology

[waegari]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'M')y point here is that Jato's contention that civilization will shortly end is utter garbage because we have vast supplies of nuclear fuel that we can utilize, whether its after some giant economic crash and die off that so many doomers are fond of here, or the more gradual infrastructure transition that I'm more confident in.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he point is can: one of the political issues you may expect is the example I just gave you about Germany.

[waegari]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he point is can: one of the political issues you may expect is the example I just gave you about Germany.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou seem to forget that 'they' will have to take action now, if they would want to follow up on your prescription.

[bobcousins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'O')kay, bob. Have you any indication that nuclear wont serve our industrial needs?

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('waegari', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he point is can: one of the political issues you may expect is the example I just gave you about Germany.

[waegari]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', ' ')I mean do you honestly think people are going to say "Gee, you know I like living and I'd hate to see my children starve, but those nuclear reactors, there just so dangerous and we'll never get enough built in time and oh hell, I'll just slit my wrists now." That is true definition of uttern nonsense. If the shoe fits...

Current NIMBYism is based on being accustomed to a certain level of spoiledness. Remove it and a persons tune changes very quickly.

[waegari]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')
Utter nonsense. Very few will vote for self starvation.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('linlithgowoil', 'a')ssuming evolution is correct, and it may not be, it doesn't really apply to people anymore because of our technology.

e.g. move black people used to a hot climate to a cold climate (i.e. take a certain variation of a species and put it somewhere its not used to). What would happen? In nature, many of these newly introduced creatures would die off rapidly, meaning their genetics would be removed from the gene pool, though some would remain who had genetic advantages.

This doesnt apply to people. The black people would just go and make/find/buy warm clothes and communicate with the indigenous people about how best to survive. Thus, their genetics remain in the gene pool and arent exterminated at all.

evolution has reached its peak, homo sapiens. once a species masters technology, communication, machinery etc. evolution ends in relation to that species.

[Dezakin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell, just trying to get back on topic here. And now you have to excuse me: will be off for a couple of days, so won't be able to watch this discussion anyhow.

[DefiledEngine]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')we have vast supplies of nuclear fuel that we can utilize, whether its after some giant economic crash and die off that so many doomers are fond of here, or the more gradual infrastructure transition that I'm more confident in.

[Graeme]

Lets talk about the present and thousands of years in the past first because our present traits could continue into the future for thousands of years too (but see below). Here is an analysis of our behavourial traits based on the close genetic relationship we have with chimpanzees and bonobos:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')e focuses on chimpanzees and bonobos because they are closest to humans, sharing a common ancestor as recently as 5.5 million years ago. After humans branched off, ancestral chimps and bonobos remained a single species for 3 million more years. Genetic evidence indicates that humans are more closely related to bonobos than to chimps, but only slightly so.

The most remarkable differences are behavioral. Chimpanzees live in hierarchical male-centered groups where dominance and alliances depend on confrontation and physical prowess. They live in Machiavellian social groupings.

Bonobos "make love, not war." They live in female-centered groups where erotic touching regardless of gender or age serves a social lubricant.

He concludes that we are "The Bipolar Ape," a creature whose challenge is to strike a balance between love and war, between competition and cooperation, between the needs of self and the needs of the group. De Waal examines the range of possibilities that evolution, both genetic and cultural, has made possible for our distinct species of ape.

In that sense, we no longer need to evolve, but in another sense we are influencing our evolution, possibly in a negative direction. We have changed the rules of survival by pharmacology, technology, or surgical intervention.

[Raxozanne]

I just finished reading Demonic Males by Richard Wrangham.

He dosen't conclude that we are a bipolar ape, he seems to think we are still stuck in the chimpanzee mold.

It would be great to see a bonobo-style human society in action. Do you think they would get anything done between the hoka hoka?

Apes of Wrath

[Daryl]

Just a reminder that evolution and geology transpire on a time scale that we can barely fathom. I believe geologists estimate there have been several catastrophic complete die-offs over the last billion years, probably caused by natural climate changes. Vast entirely strange and different ecosystems have come and gone. Ours will too in the long run, even if we have unlimited cheap oil. If the human species survives long enough to evolve into a substantially different physical specimen, I think it would happen on a time scale that would make our global/industrial civilization look like a brief flash in the pan.

[GoIllini]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DefiledEngine', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')we have vast supplies of nuclear fuel that we can utilize, whether its after some giant economic crash and die off that so many doomers are fond of here, or the more gradual infrastructure transition that I'm more confident in.

[DefiledEngine]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Again, fission's probably going to last us until Christ returns in glory. Failing that, fusion will.

[katkinkate]

Genetically: We went through one severe bottleneck in our population (swift reduction in numbers followed by eventual increase again) around 70 000 years ago (Toba supervolcano) that reduced our genetic variety quite a lot. Another die off would act as another bottleneck further reducing our genetic variability and thus increasing our risk of extinction through disease (less chance of resistant individuals) and changing environment.

Culturally: Some cultural groups are in real danger of cultural extinction now and with an eventual die off (however large it might be) more cultural groups are bound to be lost. With the absorption/death of cultures we lose more behavioural stategies and knowledge for survival for the species as a whole.

Socially: Hard times tend to make people withdraw from 'liberal' thinking (tolerance/embracing of difference) and embrace more 'conservative' even religious values. What's more they tend to feel the need to enforce conformity within their area, often to the point of violence, ostracism and murder. People being defiantly different seems to offend some people. In good times they seem to be less inclined to get too pushy, but in hard times 'different' people tend to be blamed for the hardship. If things get really hard societies worldwide will get more authoritarian in general and probably politically as well. I see a lot of gains made last century evaporating into the ether for the next several decades (eg. freedom of religion, easy access to education, social and gender equity).

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('katkinkate', 'C')ulturally: Some cultural groups are in real danger of cultural extinction now and with an eventual die off (however large it might be) more cultural groups are bound to be lost.

[katkinkate]

True not all cultures seem to be desirable to others, but they aren't all bad and the variety in ways to do things, see the world, provides more choices or viewpoints to help others understand the world. In a world of hardship knowledge of how another culture deals with a situation your culture doesn't usually face could give you an edge on survival over someone totally ignorant of others in the world. The more we lose the fewer options we have, the harder survival could become as a species.