[NevadaGhosts]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s it just me, or have recent posts seemed more full of fear lately? Is it the coming together of many negative factors (the Perfect Storm thread – by MonteQuest was a really good thread), just a bad hair day, or what? Has the news really been so much worse in the past few weeks?
I just got back to work after taking a couple of weeks off, working on my place out in the boonies. Maybe I am just in a better mood, and see things that aren’t there.

[Jack]

Yes, I think there's more fear - all justified, actually.

Keep in mind that if Peak Oil hits, and a strong recession hits, a lot of people will be out of a job. With consumer credit high, they're immediately in trouble. And with the federal budget deficit burgeoning, there may not be much money for stimulus - or for alternative energy.

The Iraq war isn't going well, and there are lots of nasty possibilities for the way it will evolve.

With the mainstream media recognizing Peak Oil, there is a real possibility that harsh times are upon us.

[Barbara]

People are nervous.
That butchery in Iraq, beheadings, kidnappings, bombings, those crazy monsters in Russia killing babies, voices of war against Iran, Israelis and Palestinians bombing each other, the economy crashing... I see people all around getting veeery afraid of future.
And I don't dare to tell them about Peak Oil too...

[Carrie]

I think it's those things, plus we're getting closer & closer to the election with the knowledge that a major terrorist attack is likely to happen, so people are wondering when that Damocles sword will fall.

I agree, there's a lot of apprehension. The smell of Apocalypse is in the air, and it's been growing for a while.

[MonteQuest]

I think it is the beginning of a paradigm shift in the way we must view the world and our place in it. The risk/reward options no longer have the same meaning they once did. The law of diminishing returns has flung its wrath across the broad spectrum of life. We are seeing the light wink on and off at the end of the tunnel. We always knew we would reach a limit one day, just not today. Our options are few; the results of those choices quite uncertain. These are unchartered waters, my friends; filled with sharks should we capsize. So, is it "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead," or do we downsize and life simpler lives?

[Guest]

Monte - This might sound a little wild, but I think that if those who recognize the scope of the changes in progress focus on 'downsizing' their ways of life to a sustainable level, then they're effectively distancing themselves from the task of taking the wheel and turning the ship about.

To stretch the analogy way too far, we'd be leaving the terracidal maniacs who control the ship's bridge to run head-on into the looming cliffs.

This is the wild bit. ~ We need to take the bridge.~

If this is achieved, then grossly destructive reactions to peak oil may be avoided, allowing completely different prospects for coming generations.

This is not to propose starting from scratch. Efforts specifically to this end have been under way since '88 around the one issue where an imperative need for a global agreement is increasingly visible globally, and where it is already plain that no agreement will be achieved unless it is based on an equitable allocation of nations' opportunities for sustainable development .

The issue is that of climate destabilization.

The strategy is that of introducing the climate policy framework of "Contraction & Convergence" as the basis of a Treaty of the Atmospheric Commons." This task is already well-advanced at a diplomatic level.

The question is whether people in wealthy nations who are awake to the 'problematique' will retreat into primarily local action or whether they'll come together around this global issue to help optimize the changes we face ?

So, (to hammer the poor analogy), as the ship's first class passengers, do we take our lifejackets and go overboard; do we register a protest at its excessive speed; or do we take the bridge ?

For myself, I must say that the water looks damn cold.

regards,

Backstop

[MonteQuest]

Far from too wild, Backstop. We have the high ground. The global climate crisis is a direct effect of increased entropy. But taking the bridge will require some brilliant tactics. If you have witnessed my exchanges with JohnDenver, you see how big an uphill battle for the bridge will be. For most people, it will be impossible to accept the notion that they should voluntarily give up their material privileges, and accept instead a limited future of hard work and dwindling material goodies.

I was suggesting that the whole world needed to downsize. I am trying to take the bridge in my own way. I have tried as best I can to articlate some salient and cogent remarks, and to suggest new directions. We have history and the Second Law on our side. The bridge must be taken!

[jato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e need to take the bridge.

[Pops]

I am feeling less afraid.

No debt, little farm with no mortgage, small (very) amount of cash for startup and some beans and flour.

My advice if you are scared is to lash your suitcases together and lower yourself quietly over the side and start rowing – the sharks are ON the ship and human nature has proven over and over that it can’t be turned around.

Worse thing that can happen is you sit at the window and look out at the rain on the hay field instead of at the traffic jam.

[Aaron]

I fear for my species... not myself.

And not that we will disappear... but that our hard fought morality will disappear.

After so much violence and struggle to rise up from simple animals, the real tragedy would be to betray countless generations of sacrifice...

[Guest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he ship is already leaking and it will sink. Man the lifeboats!

[nigel]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'F')or most people, it will be impossible to accept the notion that they should voluntarily give up their material privileges, and accept instead a limited future of hard work and dwindling material goodies.

I was suggesting that the whole world needed to downsize.

[nigel]

I'm not so sure about this shark business... so one shark gets off and goes to find its own safe secure hunting ground - isn't that what all the other sharks are doing? Isn't that what's wrong?

[Pops]

In my opinion Nigel, what’s wrong is the folks dancing blithely in the ballroom and urging the captain to keep pouring on the coal.

If those looking for a more sustainable (and less scary) future take off on their own, aren’t they
1. Setting an example and
2. Reducing the burden on the ship?

[nigel]

Pops - I agree with you about the approaching iceberg but I don't think a solution which is not open to all is going to work and we can't all bugger off because we'll all meet up in the same shark infested pool we are in now!

Your survivalist plan only works if there's no survivalist reason to do it, isn't that the paradox?

[nigel]

You can run but you can't hide from human life, not on this small planet.

I'm alright so up yours - is not my idea of a satisfactory solution. Selfishness is the cause not the answer, to our problems. If it boils down to the human condition then there is no solution. I'm much more positive than you. There are things one can do to live more sensibly and slowly, oh so slowly, we are all getting around to doing them. Many clever people are working on all sorts of alternatives and solutions right now. We're discussing the possibilities - that's positive. Peak Oil will not be the end of the world - there's peak tar sands, peak shale oil and inventions yet unimagined to come. I'm not complacent and I don't imagine life will ever be easy but I'm not running away from it. The idea that one can live in some Hollywood dream cowboy world out in the sticks if disaster and mass human migrations occured is apple pie in the sky to me. Especially not a realistic solution in the gun mad survivalist USA. Best to work on how to avoid the problem arising in the first place.

When there's 300,000,000 of you looking for your next hamburger even America will seem small.

Living in the country because you love it - that's different.

[Pops]

Trying to become more self-sufficient is far from hiding from life, unless the definition of “life” is commuting, cable TV and depending on TPTB to deliver every necessity to one’s doorstep

I’m not advocating everyone running for the hills – personally, I’m finally where I have always wanted to be, PO among other factors, just moved the timetable.

Running off to the sticks isn’t for everyone, that’s sure, but staying in a “commute 60 miles to a job unloading baggage from airliners then eat fast food on the way home” or some similar situation is sure to lead to a feeling of impending doom - if one is aware of PO anyway.

Someone may choose to try working from home and investing in a renewable electricity setup, someone else may choose to become the neighborhood backyard baker, someone else an inner-city market farmer - the point remains this: get as independent of “modern conveniences” as possible. The more you can do without outside input, the more confident you will feel.

[nigel]

Self Self Self - that's the origin of the consumer problem and that's your solution. It's no wonder the world's in such a mess. ME ME ME ME ME.

hawkcreek imagines he's the only one doing anything positive but he's an advocate of running away and putting his head in his own sand pit and sod the rest.

pops seems to have had a dreadful commuting life and has found a new and more positive life - great and good luck - but that's not a solution for anyone but him and the lucky few. If we all move to the Ozarks how would it be different from New York?

kochnevik thinks he can outrun everyone else.

Three people with a common disease - selfishness. Isn't that our problem? Self centered, self satisfied, 'self-sufficient', short term no hopers all running away to save themselves as if they, those infected with the selfishness syndrome, have found a solution to selfishness itself!

YOU JEST - TELL ME YOU JEST!

Your own pessimism and negativity ought to give you pause for thought - fatalism - things you cannot change! Change is all around us, open your eyes! It's as if you cannot see beyond the 'American dream'. Culturally blinkered? Can't Americans, conceived in cars, worshiping cars eating and living in cars see beyond cars?

Why waste time talking to others who you obviously care not a jot about - run-off and eat your beans and leave the rest of us to live and try to solve the problems for our kith, kin, friends and society.

[mgibbons19]

You seem to be under the impression that caring about others makes some sort of difference here? That you have some sort of control, or influence, over others?

Well, I guess at least you get to feel good about yourself. Good thing you're better than those other guys. They are after all the ones who caused the problem - right?

[nigel]

mcgibbons - too clever by half.

I have but one voice and gave up trying to control others when it bored me, ceased to be profitable and I realised how empty such a life was. I think the boredom came first. As for my superiority can't you read? I'm the one recognising my obligations and dependency on others, they're the special, self-selected superior beings who's lives are worth saving to the exclusion of, and precedence over, others.

Feel good about all this? Depressed, saddened, disappointed, disillusioned - AND YET HOPEFUL!