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The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

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The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby k_semler » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 19:38:48

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8865

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The American Spectator', '[')b]The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough
By Brandon Crocker
Published 10/11/2005 12:07:01 AM


America and Europe are not as similar as one might imagine. And the differences go far beyond the obvious ones of the metric system, an affinity for placing adjectives after nouns, and a greater acceptance of female body hair.

Though America is a spin-off, so to speak, of Europe, the American experience since the 17th century has been one steeped in "rugged individualism," and personal liberty and responsibility -- values enshrined in our founding political document, the Constitution. Most of Europe, on the other hand, has developed a different value system, grown out of a political culture which, until very recent times, was dominated by kings, queens, Kaisers, emperors, military dictators, and totalitarians. The result is that European politics do not accrue such importance to the idea of personal liberty as do American politics.

This relative undervaluation of personal liberty in Europe is certainly evidenced in its rush towards collectivism since the end of World War II. But it is also evidenced in other ways. I recently read, for instance, in the Spectator, of a man in England who was arrested, put in jail, and had his car seized for illegally placing a "For Sale" sign in the window of his car that was sitting on a public street. The [b]offender, a recent immigrant from Poland, was probably shocked to discover that in a "free" Western European country such as Great Britain, making such use of public streets was a punishable offense.

Great Britain has also been in the news recently for the decision of one town council to ban Piglet (Winnie the Pooh's side-kick) from government offices. After receiving a complaint from a Muslim employee, the Dudley Metropolitan Borough Council has forbidden from the work place all depictions of pigs and any "pig-related items" and in particular one employee's tissue box decorated with characters from Winnie the Pooh, including Piglet. Though there is no such injunction in the Koran, the Dudley bureaucrats decided to do sharia one better, in the name tolerance, of course. While America has its own problems with political correctness, it is still hard to imagine an action like this being foisted upon Americans.

In Italy, the author and journalist Oriana Fallaci is under indictment for the "crime" of writing a book critical of the growing Islamification of Europe. And even our cousins in Canada are far more casual about basic free speech rights than are we. Back in 2000, the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council decided to censor taped episodes of the "Dr. Laura" radio show to excise any incidents of "hate speech" which they defined as including disapproving language regarding homosexuality or arguments against the gay agenda -- such as gay marriage or gay adoption. In an apparent attempt to ridicule us simple Americans, an executive of the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council commented, "In Canada we respect free speech, but we do not worship it." One might wonder how the CBSC's actions showed "respect" for free speech, but it is a certainty that such "respect" is not the prevailing American attitude.

And so, of course, I come to Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Ruth Bader Ginsburg is the Clinton appointed Supreme Court Justice who recently said, in defending the use of foreign laws and views in deciding cases before the Supreme Court, "I will take enlightenment wherever I can get it."

As we have seen from the above examples, one man's "enlightenment" is another's straightjacket. And what is seen as "enlightenment" in what we might describe as kindred nations varies greatly. So for a U.S. Supreme Court Justice to seek "enlightenment" from foreign sources is to denigrate not just American values, but American sovereignty. Americans are supposed to be governed by Americans, through laws instituted by our elected representatives under authority granted -- and restricted by -- the Constitution -- the document Justice Ginsburg swore to uphold. But under the Ginsburg formula, she, or any other Supreme Court Justice, should be free to take instruction from Canada's treatment of Dr. Laura, or Italy's treatment of Oriana Fallaci and, if supported by four other Justices, use it as justification to reshape the law of the land regardless of American opinion or the Constitution.

It is our Constitution which protects us from the arbitrary power of petty magistrates and national legislatures alike. It is what protects the freedoms that we hold dear -- whether or not those freedoms are held dear in foreign lands -- including the rights of free speech, rights against unreasonable searches and seizures, and, until recently, the right not to have our property seized by the government to be handed over to other private citizens.

Unfortunately, the Ginsburg view of looking for foreign "enlightenment" to justify trashing the U.S. Constitution is, to varying degrees, held by a majority of the current Supreme Court. Of course, Justice Ginsburg's "enlightenment" argument really is the old "living document" argument -- that the Constitution is subject to ratification not just by the strict procedures provided for in Article V, but also by Supreme Court Justices who can consider "contemporary thought" (i.e., their own) in deciding Constitutional cases, and using whatever extra-constitutional justification may be at hand to provide a legal veneer.

American liberals have long thought that the U.S. should be more like a European welfare state and that parochial America needs to follow the example of more "progressive" nations. That's why American liberals claim Justice Ginsburg to be of the judicial "mainstream." To many liberals, the Constitution is a key impediment to making America the collectivist, nanny-state of their dreams, so they, like Justice Ginsburg, are keen to find any source of "enlightenment" aimed at dismantling its inconvenient strictures.

So the nomination of judicial conservatives to serve on the Supreme Court is pretty important to the preservation of American freedom. And President Bush has made nominating to the federal judiciary "originalists" -- those who follow the Constitution rather than "legislate from the bench" -- a cornerstone of his presidency. Knowing that, I am rather puzzled by the extraordinary calls from some segments of the American right who think that because Harriet Miers was not on any of their shortlists and (like many other previous nominees, including the late William Renquist) does not have a judicial record as long as her arm to waive about as evidence of her bona fides as an "originalist," that her nomination is somehow a "betrayal." Her nomination took me off guard, too, but given that President Bush has known her for more than a decade and that she has played a key role in Bush's solid nominations to the federal bench -- including the likes of Janice Rogers Brown, Priscilla Owen, and John Roberts -- I don't have any worries at all about her suitability at this point, and she should be given the chance to demonstrate what we are told is her sharp legal mind in hearings before prominent conservatives throw her under the bus.

And the argument that by not nominating a high-profile conservative judge that the President has missed an opportunity to forward the debate on judicial activism, strikes me as off the mark. If anything, the nomination of Harriet Miers makes that debate easier, as she does not have a judicial record that Democrats like Ted Kennedy, Pat Leahy, and Chuck Schumer can use to muddy the waters by distorting attempts to thwart constitutionally unauthorized government power-grabs as evidence of "hostility to the advancement of women and minorities" or other such hogwash. Instead, the debate can now be centered squarely on judicial philosophy.

In this regard, Justice Ginsburg has provided us a great service by putting the issue so succinctly. The first question senators should ask of Harriet Miers, and every future nominee, is to what extent should the laws and attitudes of foreign nations influence Supreme Court decisions? Any nominee who suggests that the answer is any at all, should be identified as "out of the mainstream" and rejected. That is an argument that certainly will be understood and supported by the majority of the American people.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 19:46:14

Task number one is to reign in the corporations, remove their mistaken person-hood and revert them to time-limited and for the public good. Then we can talk.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby k_semler » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 18:37:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'T')ask number one is to reign in the corporations, remove their mistaken person-hood and revert them to time-limited and for the public good. Then we can talk.


And you can think the "progressive" thinking of 1886. Misinterpetation of the constitution has been going on for quite a while.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 18:43:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('k_semler', 'A')nd you can think the "progressive" thinking of 1886.


What were the "progressives" thinking back then?
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby k_semler » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 18:51:13

Obviously that a corporation is a legal person, and segregation was OK if equivilant facilities were provided for persons of color. "Seperate but equal." Other than that, I have no idea what they were thinking, you would have to travel back in time to ask a progressive of that time period.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 19:05:34

So we have the problem that:

1. People in government want to do something - anything that makes their name and assures them a safe future in or out of government.

2. People outside government who want government to fix problems - even if it is outside the scope of government.

So if you already have a halfway decent system, the ideal government person would be the one who does nothing. But this would go against points 1 and 2.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby k_semler » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 19:20:55

YES!!
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 21:52:31

The ideal government would adhere to the following words:

"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him."

I'm sure Semler could point out who made that quote. Anyone that doesn't know who made it needs to brush up on their American history.

The 'progressive' movement was progressive in some ways, seeking to uphold one's right to freedom of assembly, but it was regressive in many other ways. I'd even go so far as to state that the modern neocon movement is a derivative of your late 19th century 'progressives'.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby Schweinshaxe » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 22:13:47

Toe_Nail: It was Thomas Jefferson.

The problem here in Old Europe is that we have no constitution to fall back upon. The 6000 pages long EU "constitution" dealing with every small detail (which was rejected by the people in the countries where referendum was held) is not what I'd call a constitution. A constitution should be very brief and focus on human rights. We have no rights here in Old Europe anymore. The European world is rapidly moving towards collectivism. If the result will be communism, hardcore socialism or fascism I don't know.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 22:22:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schweinshaxe', 'T')oe_Nail: It was Thomas Jefferson.

The problem here in Old Europe is that we have no constitution to fall back upon. The 6000 pages long EU "constitution" dealing with every small detail (which was rejected by the people in the countries where referendum was held) is not what I'd call a constitution. A constitution should be very brief and focus on human rights. We have no rights here in Old Europe anymore. The European world is rapidly moving towards collectivism. If the result will be communism, hardcore socialism or fascism I don't know.


Magna Carta is normally regarded as the UK's founding document, which was signed by King John at Runnymede under protest.

In NZ we have "The Treaty of Waitangi" which was drawn up by a Navy Officer (which is odd considering it is all about land rights and such) and has two distinctly different versions due to translation problems.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Thu 13 Oct 2005, 17:17:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hough America is a spin-off, so to speak, of Europe, the American experience since the 17th century has been one steeped in "rugged individualism," and personal liberty and responsibility -- values enshrined in our founding political document, the Constitution. Most of Europe, on the other hand, has developed a different value system, grown out of a political culture which, until very recent times, was dominated by kings, queens, Kaisers, emperors, military dictators, and totalitarians. The result is that European politics do not accrue such importance to the idea of personal liberty as do American politics.


This is a somewhat skewed view of history, and perhaps intentionally so. I am aware of no time and place that individuality was valued as highly as it has been in America since the dawn of the 20th century especially, but throughout its history.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his relative undervaluation of personal liberty in Europe is certainly evidenced in its rush towards collectivism since the end of World War II.


Watch for the rhetorical tricks throughout this article. The author could have stated this exact ideas a number of ways, but he chose to do so in a way that makes it appear that European values are inferior to American values. The word "undervaluation" carries not only a particular negative material connotation, but a negative moral connotation as well.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut it is also evidenced in other ways. I recently read, for instance, in the Spectator, of a man in England who was arrested, put in jail, and had his car seized for illegally placing a "For Sale" sign in the window of his car that was sitting on a public street. The [b]offender, a recent immigrant from Poland, was probably shocked to discover that in a "free" Western European country such as Great Britain, making such use of public streets was a punishable offense.


And I read recently of a mass murderer in America who killed two children, but who got out of jail Scott-free because of a technicality to do with his ostensibly individual rights.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council decided to censor taped episodes of the "Dr. Laura" radio show to excise any incidents of "hate speech" which they defined as including disapproving language regarding homosexuality or arguments against the gay agenda -- such as gay marriage or gay adoption...."In Canada we respect free speech, but we do not worship it."


No matter how much you may respect free speech, there are obvious limits. It would be criminal, for instance, for a doctor to say to a healthy patient that she had Cancer, and needed expensive chemotherapy and radiation therapy (which the doctor would presumably make money at providing). Claiming that the doctor was merely exercising his right to free speech would be sad if it weren't also absurd. I think that people who want to spread hatred in the way that Laura Schlesinger seems to want to ought to be subject to censorship on the same principle.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s we have seen from the above examples, one man's "enlightenment" is another's straightjacket. And what is seen as "enlightenment" in what we might describe as kindred nations varies greatly. So for a U.S. Supreme Court Justice to seek "enlightenment" from foreign sources is to denigrate not just American values, but American sovereignty. Americans are supposed to be governed by Americans, through laws instituted by our elected representatives under authority granted -- and restricted by -- the Constitution -- the document Justice Ginsburg swore to uphold. But under the Ginsburg formula, she, or any other Supreme Court Justice, should be free to take instruction from Canada's treatment of Dr. Laura, or Italy's treatment of Oriana Fallaci and, if supported by four other Justices, use it as justification to reshape the law of the land regardless of American opinion or the Constitution.

This paragraph stands with just a few others I have ever read as one of the most pernicious strings of language in existence. The reason we have a judiciary is because no matter how carefully language is crafted, people will find a way to differ on its meaning. If meaning were always 100% clear, there would never be a need for a judge to preside at a trial. Justice Ginsberg's remark referred to an interpretation of language that she found inspiring; so what if she read it in some European legal commentary? Would it have been an equal crime if she had claimed to have been inspired by Plato or Hammurabi? Surely an oath to uphold the constitution doesn't suddenly cut our government officials off from availing themselves of the intellectual heritage of the world. Hell, the language the constitution is written in originated on another continent. Justice Ginsberg's ruling might be objected to, but not on these rather ridiculous grounds.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is our Constitution which protects us from the arbitrary power of petty magistrates and national legislatures alike. It is what protects the freedoms that we hold dear -- whether or not those freedoms are held dear in foreign lands -- including the rights of free speech, rights against unreasonable searches and seizures, and, until recently, the right not to have our property seized by the government to be handed over to other private citizens.

I can understand why eminent domain might apply for a government, but I disagree quite strongly with this decision by the court. I'm not sure why it's considered a "liberal" decision--both the definition of liberal and that of conservative seem to have become rather bent in this country.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')nfortunately, the Ginsburg view of looking for foreign "enlightenment" to justify trashing the U.S. Constitution is, to varying degrees, held by a majority of the current Supreme Court. Of course, Justice Ginsburg's "enlightenment" argument really is the old "living document" argument -- that the Constitution is subject to ratification not just by the strict procedures provided for in Article V, but also by Supreme Court Justices who can consider "contemporary thought" (i.e., their own) in deciding Constitutional cases, and using whatever extra-constitutional justification may be at hand to provide a legal veneer.

Leaving out completely the fact that the Supreme Court never alters the constitution, they determine whether laws or decisions enacted or made by other bodies are consistent with it.

But the constitution, as with any other document, cannot fail to have revised meaning through the passage of time. And this is central to why liberal thinking is necessarily superior to conservative thinking. On the morning he was assassinated, John Kennedy remarked that "We would like to live as we once did, but history does not permit it." I don't think this is something that can be disputed. Conditions change. The environment changes. People's needs generation to generation change. Standards of living change. Diseases evolve. Technology evolves. Wars are fought and borders redrawn. Cultures change. People die and others are born. New novels are written and old ones forgotten. Change is one of the most fundamental and pervasive aspects of reality.

The essence of liberal thought is that holding on to a tradition or principle past its usefulness is harmful. Our values must therefore change over time, or we suffer harm.

This is why, for instance, an ostensibly liberal president could support a virtual dismantling of welfare--because times had changed and it no longer served the purpose it once did. I agree that we shouldn't bring it back.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')merican liberals have long thought that the U.S. should be more like a European welfare state and that parochial America needs to follow the example of more "progressive" nations. That's why American liberals claim Justice Ginsburg to be of the judicial "mainstream." To many liberals, the Constitution is a key impediment to making America the collectivist, nanny-state of their dreams, so they, like Justice Ginsburg, are keen to find any source of "enlightenment" aimed at dismantling its inconvenient strictures.

This paragraph doesn't at all tackle why liberals might think that...although this seems to be a whitewash of most liberals' positions anyway. In terms of the overall health and happiness of the populations, most European countries, especially those that are truly progressive, beat America hands down. Now a conservative may wish to argue this point, but I have yet to see one actually try to do so. They seem to, as the author of this article does, dance around the issue or dismiss it with sleight-of-pen.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd you can think the "progressive" thinking of 1886. Misinterpetation of the constitution has been going on for quite a while.

At the time, it was even the right thing to do. The problem is that laws surrounding corporate charter are now taken as gospel by conservatives, while liberals would rather change with the times. The principle political problem in this country is that neither liberals nor conservatives understand this idea.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby k_semler » Fri 14 Oct 2005, 17:01:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hough America is a spin-off, so to speak, of Europe, the American experience since the 17th century has been one steeped in "rugged individualism," and personal liberty and responsibility -- values enshrined in our founding political document, the Constitution. Most of Europe, on the other hand, has developed a different value system, grown out of a political culture which, until very recent times, was dominated by kings, queens, Kaisers, emperors, military dictators, and totalitarians. The result is that European politics do not accrue such importance to the idea of personal liberty as do American politics.


This is a somewhat skewed view of history, and perhaps intentionally so. I am aware of no time and place that individuality was valued as highly as it has been in America since the dawn of the 20th century especially, but throughout its history.


So how are you disagreeing with this again? It seems like you are infact agreeing with it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his relative undervaluation of personal liberty in Europe is certainly evidenced in its rush towards collectivism since the end of World War II.


Watch for the rhetorical tricks throughout this article. The author could have stated this exact ideas a number of ways, but he chose to do so in a way that makes it appear that European values are inferior to American values. The word "undervaluation" carries not only a particular negative material connotation, but a negative moral connotation as well.


So what other word would you place in there besides "undervaluation"? How about "lack of respect", or "neglecting", or "disregarding"? There are many other words that could have been put in, I will grant you that. But no matter what word, (or words), are placed in, the message is the same, and no less true.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut it is also evidenced in other ways. I recently read, for instance, in the Spectator, of a man in England who was arrested, put in jail, and had his car seized for illegally placing a "For Sale" sign in the window of his car that was sitting on a public street. The offender, a recent immigrant from Poland, was probably shocked to discover that in a "free" Western European country such as Great Britain, making such use of public streets was a punishable offense.

And I read recently of a mass murderer in America who killed two children, but who got out of jail Scott-free because of a technicality to do with his ostensibly individual rights.

Wow, talk about blowing it out of proportion. How exactly does placing a "for sale" sign in a car window for the purposes of conducting a transaction even remotly relate to a mass murderer? BTW, killing 2 people generally isn't considered a mass murderer. more than 10 people in a paticular instance, yes. More than 3 people, a serial killer. Less than 3 people, just a murderer.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council decided to censor taped episodes of the "Dr. Laura" radio show to excise any incidents of "hate speech" which they defined as including disapproving language regarding homosexuality or arguments against the gay agenda -- such as gay marriage or gay adoption...."In Canada we respect free speech, but we do not worship it."

No matter how much you may respect free speech, there are obvious limits. It would be criminal, for instance, for a doctor to say to a healthy patient that she had Cancer, and needed expensive chemotherapy and radiation therapy (which the doctor would presumably make money at providing). Claiming that the doctor was merely exercising his right to free speech would be sad if it weren't also absurd. I think that people who want to spread hatred in the way that Laura Schlesinger seems to want to ought to be subject to censorship on the same principle.


I'll agree with you on the doctor, because that places human life at risk when no initial risk is present. Very similar to yelling "fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire. However, have you ever even listened to Dr. Laura? I'll guess you have not. After all, just going with the status quo is more fun, (and a lot easier), than making up your own mind, isn't it? Either that, or your qualifications for "hate speech" are very low.

What do you consider "hate" speech? I disagree with practicing in homosexual activities, as I believe it is unnatural., and I don't want to be around people who are are stuck on themselves, they just drag me down. Or would you consider I'm gonna go kill me some fags., and Time to go stomp some snobs.

If you consider the third and fourth examples to be "hate speech", I agree that it probably is. If you think the first and second examples are "hate speech", then your bar is pretty low to be hate speech. Dr. Laura does the first and second examples quite often, but I have never heard her use the third and fourth examples. BTW, if you think the first and second examples are "hate speech", then it must be that any and all dissent from the "Official Liberal Stance" must be "hate speech".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s we have seen from the above examples, one man's "enlightenment" is another's straightjacket. And what is seen as "enlightenment" in what we might describe as kindred nations varies greatly. So for a U.S. Supreme Court Justice to seek "enlightenment" from foreign sources is to denigrate not just American values, but American sovereignty. Americans are supposed to be governed by Americans, through laws instituted by our elected representatives under authority granted -- and restricted by -- the Constitution -- the document Justice Ginsburg swore to uphold. But under the Ginsburg formula, she, or any other Supreme Court Justice, should be free to take instruction from Canada's treatment of Dr. Laura, or Italy's treatment of Oriana Fallaci and, if supported by four other Justices, use it as justification to reshape the law of the land regardless of American opinion or the Constitution.

This paragraph stands with just a few others I have ever read as one of the most pernicious strings of language in existence. The reason we have a judiciary is because no matter how carefully language is crafted, people will find a way to differ on its meaning. If meaning were always 100% clear, there would never be a need for a judge to preside at a trial. Justice Ginsberg's remark referred to an interpretation of language that she found inspiring; so what if she read it in some European legal commentary? Would it have been an equal crime if she had claimed to have been inspired by Plato or Hammurabi? Surely an oath to uphold the constitution doesn't suddenly cut our government officials off from availing themselves of the intellectual heritage of the world. Hell, the language the constitution is written in originated on another continent. Justice Ginsberg's ruling might be objected to, but not on these rather ridiculous grounds.

Ginsberg can read whatever the hell she wants, whenever the hell she wants, so long as it does not interfere with the oath she took to get her that seat. Namely, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. She could read Trotsky or Karl Marx if she wanted to, (and she probably does), if it does not interfere with appointed position. Also, where do you draw the line for foriegn law influencing domestic law? Should muslims be allowed to practice Sharia Law? How about we forbid women to drive, or make dissent a capitol offence? How about a 95% income tax? Or require that calisthenics are done every morining at 0400?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is our Constitution which protects us from the arbitrary power of petty magistrates and national legislatures alike. It is what protects the freedoms that we hold dear -- whether or not those freedoms are held dear in foreign lands -- including the rights of free speech, rights against unreasonable searches and seizures, and, until recently, the right not to have our property seized by the government to be handed over to other private citizens.

I can understand why eminent domain might apply for a government, but I disagree quite strongly with this decision by the court. I'm not sure why it's considered a "liberal" decision--both the definition of liberal and that of conservative seem to have become rather bent in this country.

Because by allowing ED to apply to circumstances to increase government revenue, the government is now officially just letting you rent the land that you thought you owned. And they will only let you rent it until they have somebody willing to pay a higher rent, (tax). The reason it is a liberal decision, is because it gives the government even more power than it had before. Liberals today aren't on the side of "the little guy", they are on the side of ever-increasing government influence in citizens lives. Anything that can be done to increase that power, liberals tend to support.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')nfortunately, the Ginsburg view of looking for foreign "enlightenment" to justify trashing the U.S. Constitution is, to varying degrees, held by a majority of the current Supreme Court. Of course, Justice Ginsburg's "enlightenment" argument really is the old "living document" argument -- that the Constitution is subject to ratification not just by the strict procedures provided for in Article V, but also by Supreme Court Justices who can consider "contemporary thought" (i.e., their own) in deciding Constitutional cases, and using whatever extra-constitutional justification may be at hand to provide a legal veneer.

Leaving out completely the fact that the Supreme Court never alters the constitution, they determine whether laws or decisions enacted or made by other bodies are consistent with it.


They might as well, the fifth amendment has been completly destroyed by the ED ruling, the fourth and sixth by allowing US citizens to be detained for indefinate periods without reason or trial if they are declared an "enemy combatant". Although the constitution does allow the writ of habeus corpus to be suspended in times of war, no such declaration has been made, therefore it is unconstitutional. With these two rulings, habeus corpus is effectivly suspended forever, but not officially.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'B')ut the constitution, as with any other document, cannot fail to have revised meaning through the passage of time. And this is central to why liberal thinking is necessarily superior to conservative thinking. On the morning he was assassinated, John Kennedy remarked that "We would like to live as we once did, but history does not permit it." I don't think this is something that can be disputed. Conditions change. The environment changes. People's needs generation to generation change. Standards of living change. Diseases evolve. Technology evolves. Wars are fought and borders redrawn. Cultures change. People die and others are born. New novels are written and old ones forgotten. Change is one of the most fundamental and pervasive aspects of reality.

If it really needs changed so bad, a process exists for that known as [b]amending
. See article five. The founding fathers were aware that changes may need to be made, which is why this process exists. Yes, it is very difficult to change the constitution, but it should be. To quote the Declaration of Independence:

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'T')he essence of liberal thought is that holding on to a tradition or principle past its usefulness is harmful. Our values must therefore change over time, or we suffer harm.

See above.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'T')his is why, for instance, an ostensibly liberal president could support a virtual dismantling of welfare--because times had changed and it no longer served the purpose it once did. I agree that we shouldn't bring it back.

Yeah right, a liberal president would never reduce the influence of the Nanny State. It will only expand until it eventually becomes so large, that it will collapse under it's own weight. Just look at the USSR. According to the liberals, it should have been peace on earth. Look at New Orleans. It has been in Democratic control for the last 60 years. If liberalism were actually effective, there should have been no crime, no "class struggle", (wow, right out of the Communist Manifesto), no blight, no corruption, a dike that worked, and nothing but pure harmony. Obviously, that is not, and was not the case. Liberalism fails once again.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')merican liberals have long thought that the U.S. should be more like a European welfare state and that parochial America needs to follow the example of more "progressive" nations. That's why American liberals claim Justice Ginsburg to be of the judicial "mainstream." To many liberals, the Constitution is a key impediment to making America the collectivist, nanny-state of their dreams, so they, like Justice Ginsburg, are keen to find any source of "enlightenment" aimed at dismantling its inconvenient strictures.

This paragraph doesn't at all tackle why liberals might think that...although this seems to be a whitewash of most liberals' positions anyway. In terms of the overall health and happiness of the populations, most European countries, especially those that are truly progressive, beat America hands down. Now a conservative may wish to argue this point, but I have yet to see one actually try to do so. They seem to, as the author of this article does, dance around the issue or dismiss it with sleight-of-pen.

I'll tell you why. They are communist sympathisers that wish for the return of the USSR, but with worldwide influence. They are the "one-worlders" that believe that government is God, and the Supreme Court is thier tempel of worship.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd you can think the "progressive" thinking of 1886. Misinterpetation of the constitution has been going on for quite a while.

At the time, it was even the right thing to do. The problem is that laws surrounding corporate charter are now taken as gospel by conservatives, while liberals would rather change with the times. The principle political problem in this country is that neither liberals nor conservatives understand this idea.

No, it wasn't the right thing. If it was, an amendment could have been proposed to give corporations personhood. They did it for the blacks and indian population, obviously they did not include corporate entities in the fourteenth amendment. A corporation is no more of a person, than I am a corporation.
Here Lies the United States Of America.

July 04, 1776 - June 23 2005

Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

Eminent Domain Was The Murderer.
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Mon 17 Oct 2005, 11:49:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o how are you disagreeing with this again? It seems like you are infact agreeing with it.


Because, in comparing America to Feudal and post-Feudal Europe only, the author seems to want the reader to believe that the two points of view have relatively equal historical weight. They do not; collectivism is far and away the attitude taken by most peoples throughout history. American attitudes about individualism are an aberation, not the norm.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o what other word would you place in there besides "undervaluation"? How about "lack of respect", or "neglecting", or "disregarding"? There are many other words that could have been put in, I will grant you that. But no matter what word, (or words), are placed in, the message is the same, and no less true.


I would have written the paragraph entirely differently; giving the semantic undercurrent its full due, the paragraph is not true as it stands. European values developed differently, as this author correctly notes, but he doesn't tackle the logic of why they might have done so, or why there might be advantages in how they differ. Instead, he resorts to a rhetorical trick to slyly express an opinion. Readers not astute or experienced enough with such tricks might find themselves subconsciously persuaded, despite the utter lack of actual argumentation.

If you think the sentence "Relatively, Americans overvalue the notion of personal rights and liberty" seems wrong, then you're on to what I'm saying. Logically, it is implied by what this author wrote, but the words "undervalue" and "overvalue" imply an error in judgement, when the real issues are far more complicated. Neither side makes an error in judgement so much as a choice in emphasis; if either side makes an error then both do.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ow, talk about blowing it out of proportion. How exactly does placing a "for sale" sign in a car window for the purposes of conducting a transaction even remotly relate to a mass murderer? BTW, killing 2 people generally isn't considered a mass murderer. more than 10 people in a paticular instance, yes. More than 3 people, a serial killer. Less than 3 people, just a murderer.


It doesn't compare, which is exactly my point. The author seemed to wish to point up the negative consequences of European collectivist thinking without pointing out the downside of American individualist thinking. If the best he's got is a guy who went to jail for a "for sale" sign, then I've got a few murderers who get away clean. I've got corporations that trample on their employees. I've got people behaving like asses towards each other. Rampant materialism and near complete loss of human dignity. Etc.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever, have you ever even listened to Dr. Laura? I'll guess you have not. After all, just going with the status quo is more fun, (and a lot easier), than making up your own mind, isn't it? Either that, or your qualifications for "hate speech" are very low.


I've listened to her on several occasions, actually. I don't recall the precise circumstances except that it was in response to a letter she had received, but she called homosexuals an abomination (her word). That's quite clearly hate speech in my book, especially since a number of people take it as inspiration to commit hateful acts. If you actually read the speeches of Adolph Hitler, he said things about Jews and Pols roughly on the same level as Dr. Schlessinger says about homosexuals. Obviously, Dr. Schlessinger isn't trying to become the Chancellor of America, but her words are probably intended to inspire people to hate others.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat do you consider "hate" speech? I disagree with practicing in homosexual activities, as I believe it is unnatural., and I don't want to be around people who are are stuck on themselves, they just drag me down. Or would you consider I'm gonna go kill me some fags., and Time to go stomp some snobs.

The first nearly crosses the line, depending on context (though if the "unnatural" bit was left off, it would not). The second is not. The third and fourth are.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you consider the third and fourth examples to be "hate speech", I agree that it probably is. If you think the first and second examples are "hate speech", then your bar is pretty low to be hate speech. Dr. Laura does the first and second examples quite often, but I have never heard her use the third and fourth examples. BTW, if you think the first and second examples are "hate speech", then it must be that any and all dissent from the "Official Liberal Stance" must be "hate speech".

How does "it must be that any and all dissent from the Official Liberal Stance must be hate speech" follow from "You consider the third and fourth examples to be hate speech"?

Also, regarding the "Official Liberal Stance," I'm not sure what you mean. Academic liberalism seems to be based solidly in fact and reason, whereas both American liberalism and conservativism are based in fancy ideologies that have little real meaning.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')insberg can read whatever the hell she wants, whenever the hell she wants, so long as it does not interfere with the oath she took to get her that seat. Namely, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. She could read Trotsky or Karl Marx if she wanted to, (and she probably does), if it does not interfere with appointed position. Also, where do you draw the line for foriegn law influencing domestic law? Should muslims be allowed to practice Sharia Law? How about we forbid women to drive, or make dissent a capitol offence? How about a 95% income tax? Or require that calisthenics are done every morining at 0400?

This has nothing to do with my point. If justice Ginsberg read a foreign legal opinion, and realized that it was a sound interpretation of a similar bit of U.S. law, it shouldn't matter that the idea had popped into a non-American's head first. Most of our laws and values are not originally American, but are drawn from a diverse set of ideologies throughout history.

My counter-example for your question of where to draw the line would be this: nearly every shade and sub-position within any possibly conceivable legal framework has already been thought of by someone who was not an American. It would be literally impossible to define any legal position that avoided the influence of a non-American person.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ecause by allowing ED to apply to circumstances to increase government revenue, the government is now officially just letting you rent the land that you thought you owned. And they will only let you rent it until they have somebody willing to pay a higher rent, (tax). The reason it is a liberal decision, is because it gives the government even more power than it had before. Liberals today aren't on the side of "the little guy", they are on the side of ever-increasing government influence in citizens lives. Anything that can be done to increase that power, liberals tend to support.

This is the confusing part of American politics (at least, it confuses me why more people don't get this). Liberalism has nothing to do with big government unless it will ensure more general prosperity to increase government. FDR saw that this was the best way out of the depression, so he increased the size of government. Since then, such increases have been associated with liberalism, but they should not be, especially when they no longer increase prosperity. There are very, very few actual liberals in American politics today, and some of them, ironically, are labelled as conservatives. Liberalism, as I understand it, is defined by the notion that laws and methods of government ought to change over time, as circumstances change, so as to bring about the most prosperity for the people governed. Government itself ought to have no other purpose.

Now, this word "prosperity" is a little ambiguous. What I mean by it is probably what another person might mean by "general happiness". I don't mean that government ought to ensure everyone makes as much money as possible (though it ought to ensure that people at least have the opportunity to make a decent living and be fairly socially mobile). In a defensive war, government may press young men into military service and send them to their deaths. While obviously not providing for their prosperity, overall, the people will prosper because of that action.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey might as well, the fifth amendment has been completly destroyed by the ED ruling, the fourth and sixth by allowing US citizens to be detained for indefinate periods without reason or trial if they are declared an "enemy combatant". Although the constitution does allow the writ of habeus corpus to be suspended in times of war, no such declaration has been made, therefore it is unconstitutional. With these two rulings, habeus corpus is effectivly suspended forever, but not officially.

I think you may actually be seeing my point from the other side. Bush, a supposedly conservative politician, has increased government power to intrude into the private life of American citizens, expressly against the constitution. The point I am making is that very, very few politicians, whether they call themselves liberal or conservative, are actually concerned with the welfare of the American people. Government is about protecting the wealthy, now, and "liberals" work one side of the coin while "conservatives" work the other.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f it really needs changed so bad, a process exists for that known as amending. See article five. The founding fathers were aware that changes may need to be made, which is why this process exists. Yes, it is very difficult to change the constitution, but it should be. To quote the Declaration of Independence:

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

I'm not talking about changing the constitution formally. I'm talking about decisions involving the application of common and case law. The constitution could be almost infinitely ammended, and it wouldn't avoid the necessity of interpretation. And it should be interpretted according to the highest moral lights available at a given time (say I). But those lights change, and with them should change how the consitution is applied.

I agree that the Supreme court, along with every other branch of government, is more or less a criminal syndicate. The constitution is completely trashed (well, not quite completely, but well nigh). My objection to this article is the author's remedy, which would actually only make things worse. What we need is not intellectual xenophobia, but sound reasoning, prudence and care in governing, and genuine justice and fairness. We're getting that from neither side.

Finally, this seems to be a good place to warn that if we slavishly obey even our founding documents, we are in serious danger. People used to consider the Bible to be nearly infallible, to be the document that people looked to whenever there was a dispute about how various parties ought to behave. I find it a little disturbing that, even in the face of superior argumentation and evidence, some people will resort to looking at the Constitution or the Declaration of independence as if they are divinely inspired. They were written by some very smart, savvy men. They were written by men of deep dignity and character. But they were written by men, and those men might become wrong if their opinions are applied to modern circumstance.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')eah right, a liberal president would never reduce the influence of the Nanny State.

If I were president, I would take steps to do so, though there are many other things I would also change. Again, "liberal" is a term that is defined differently in history and in American politics today.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t will only expand until it eventually becomes so large, that it will collapse under it's own weight. Just look at the USSR. According to the liberals, it should have been peace on earth. Look at New Orleans. It has been in Democratic control for the last 60 years. If liberalism were actually effective, there should have been no crime, no "class struggle", (wow, right out of the Communist Manifesto), no blight, no corruption, a dike that worked, and nothing but pure harmony. Obviously, that is not, and was not the case. Liberalism fails once again.

New Orleans is not a good example because it, like all other American cities, is subject to State and Federal laws, some of which were crafted by conservative politicians.

As for Russia:

1) It wasn't as bad as people in America have been led to believe, especially post Stalin. I know several people from Russia.

2) It was never actually practicing the communism envisioned by Marx and Engles anyway. No country ever has, though Bhutan comes the closest in my opinion. And it is probably as close to paradise as one gets on earth.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'ll tell you why. They are communist sympathisers that wish for the return of the USSR, but with worldwide influence. They are the "one-worlders" that believe that government is God, and the Supreme Court is thier tempel of worship.

I'm a communist sympathizer, but I don't yearn for a return of the U.S.S.R., or for Chinese dominance, or any other such thing. I've actually read Marx, and I understand his point, which seems imminently reasonable to me. It ignores only one thing about human nature (namely, the ambition that some people have to rise above others), and that fact unravels it in a practical sense. What I hope is that people will wise up and figure out that labels, especially in America, have become almost like Telesmata that divert attention from the real issues.

To me (and apparently to the founding fathers), government should be primarily concerned with the overall weal of the people being governed. What we have now, however, is a government that cares nothing for the people it governs. We should not be beholden to useless platitudes when people are in great need.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o, it wasn't the right thing. If it was, an amendment could have been proposed to give corporations personhood. They did it for the blacks and indian population, obviously they did not include corporate entities in the fourteenth amendment. A corporation is no more of a person, than I am a corporation.

Of course it was the right thing to do. It was the begining of the industrial era, and economies were changing rapidly. Laws protecting corporate charters were necessary to sustain the new economy.

Unfortunately, they went too far, and should have been repealed and re-written after a couple decades. But they were not; and we have conservative thinking to thank for that. We should have changed as times changed. That is the essence of liberalism. That we maintained laws that no longer served the people is to be blamed on conservatives of the day.

Anyway, you think the rightness or wrongness of something is determined by whether there was an amendment to the constitution enacted?
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Re: The Constitution Is Enlightenment Enough

Unread postby k_semler » Tue 18 Oct 2005, 02:11:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o how are you disagreeing with this again? It seems like you are infact agreeing with it.


Because, in comparing America to Feudal and post-Feudal Europe only, the author seems to want the reader to believe that the two points of view have relatively equal historical weight. They do not; collectivism is far and away the attitude taken by most peoples throughout history. American attitudes about individualism are an aberation, not the norm.


Collectivism within separate families, clans, communities, and tribes have existed throughout history, I will grant you that. Even during the settlement of the North American continent by white man exhibited that. Severe injury or death of one person, (or a few people), within that clan would weaken the whole unit, and lessen the group's chance or survival. Similarly, if one person had a particularly bad year in harvest, it would leave him with less to feed himself, and thus less, to sell in the community economic system. This under preformance of this one person's plot would directly impact the community. As such, many times the group would engage in a collective farming agreement to reduce the possiblities of a failing year. However, collectivism on a national scale is more of a recent phenomenon.

Take the 1700's for example, economies were reigonalised, and only non-perishable items were possible to trade with neighboring communities, let alone New York NY, to Atlanta GA. Meat would have had to be salted to the point that it might as well be just made into jerky. Bread would have molded, so they had to ship the raw grain. On a nationwide scale, it was every community for its self. If Atlanta GA died off of starvation, it was little concern of Boston MA.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o what other word would you place in there besides "undervaluation"? How about "lack of respect", or "neglecting", or "disregarding"? There are many other words that could have been put in, I will grant you that. But no matter what word, (or words), are placed in, the message is the same, and no less true.


I would have written the paragraph entirely differently; giving the semantic undercurrent its full due, the paragraph is not true as it stands. European values developed differently, as this author correctly notes, but he doesn't tackle the logic of why they might have done so, or why there might be advantages in how they differ. Instead, he resorts to a rhetorical trick to slyly express an opinion.
The history of Europe was that of warfare between the various lord barons, (infighting), which would lead to a clanish attiude of the phesants in order to defend what was thiers. As the local lord barons quit fighting amongst themselves, nationstates were established, and the enemy was from without. So the collectivism expanded to include all subjects of the nationstate, for better protection and less dependence upon a possible future enemy. A strong individual contributed to a strong community. Strong communities contributed to a strong nationstate. Since the exploit of a weaker village would weaken the nationstate as a whole, it was of utter importance that all communities were equally capable of being both defensive and offensive stations. If the invading nation were to take enough weaker cities, the nationstate being invaded would eventually collapse due to constraints upon thier defense ability. Europe was also very population dense at the time, so developing a meaningful relationship was crucial to the peace within the community. You could move, but you will just be in the same situation. I have no idea why the EU held on to collectivism, who would attack the EU, and what would the agressor want with mainland europe? Since the reasons for defense and self suffeciency are not under any direct threat, what purpose is there to hold on to socialistic ideals? Is it a force of habit, from a millenia of war amont the various land barons?

Meanwhile, the early American settlement had primarily one enemy. The Indians. We wanted the land, and they were on it. If they would not sell it to us, we would take it by force if necessary. Instead of worrying about infighting, we had an external enemy to defeat. Individualism also developed due to the immense spaces that were available to yet be settled. If you were tired of your neighbors and local politics, wanted an adventure, wanted to seek riches, or wanted to evade legal authority, you only had to journey westward until you found somewhere you thought you could make a life. Since your nearest neighbor may be a 3 day trip by horse, the mere survival of the migrant was resting solely upon his shoulders. Often times, there was nobody to depend on once you decided to settle, (or on the journey). Due to this, individual independence was highly valued, as being of a collectivist mindset when you are 3 days away from another person would quickly lead to your death. It quite literally was "You against the world". Why this mindset still exists, I have no idea. I can only answer for myself in that aspect. My reason is that I believe that nobody is going to do anything for me if it would not directly benefit their interests, and nobody cares what happens with my individual life, so I only have myself to depend upon. I even go to the extent of not having "friends". In real life, I will not engage in casual contact with other humans. I only maintain relationships to the extent necessary to accomplish a certain goal. Everything you expose to another person can be used against you.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'R')eaders not astute or experienced enough with such tricks might find themselves subconsciously persuaded, despite the utter lack of actual argumentation.

If you think the sentence "Relatively, Americans overvalue the notion of personal rights and liberty" seems wrong, then you're on to what I'm saying. Logically, it is implied by what this author wrote, but the words "undervalue" and "overvalue" imply an error in judgement, when the real issues are far more complicated. Neither side makes an error in judgement so much as a choice in emphasis; if either side makes an error then both do.


Good point, maybe the author should have used "do not place emphasis upon" instead of "Undervalue".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ow, talk about blowing it out of proportion. How exactly does placing a "for sale" sign in a car window for the purposes of conducting a transaction even remotly relate to a mass murderer? BTW, killing 2 people generally isn't considered a mass murderer. more than 10 people in a paticular instance, yes. More than 3 people, a serial killer. Less than 3 people, just a murderer.

It doesn't compare, which is exactly my point. The author seemed to wish to point up the negative consequences of European collectivist thinking without pointing out the downside of American individualist thinking. If the best he's got is a guy who went to jail for a "for sale" sign, then I've got a few murderers who get away clean. I've got corporations that trample on their employees. I've got people behaving like asses towards each other. Rampant materialism and near complete loss of human dignity. Etc.

As do I, esp. O.J. Simpson. I can think of another example. Go to Germany and call a police officer a " verdammter schweinhund dummkopf". You'll be arrested for hate speech. As far as the assholes go, you will find those everywhere. People will lie, cheat, steal, and murder. In my book, those people are assholes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever, have you ever even listened to Dr. Laura? I'll guess you have not. After all, just going with the status quo is more fun, (and a lot easier), than making up your own mind, isn't it? Either that, or your qualifications for "hate speech" are very low.

I've listened to her on several occasions, actually. I don't recall the precise circumstances except that it was in response to a letter she had received, but she called homosexuals an abomination (her word). That's quite clearly hate speech in my book, especially since a number of people take it as inspiration to commit hateful acts. If you actually read the speeches of Adolph Hitler, he said things about Jews and Pols roughly on the same level as Dr. Schlessinger says about homosexuals. Obviously, Dr. Schlessinger isn't trying to become the Chancellor of America, but her words are probably intended to inspire people to hate others.

Given that abomination means to be abbored or disgusting, I would agree with her that the act of practicing homosexuality is an abomination, but not the people themselves. I am perfectly straight, and I do not get a prostitute whenever I wish to engage in sexual intercourse. While the attraction to a paticular sex may not be a choice, the act of engaging in sexual activities is very much a choice. As far as hate speech is concerned, that is a very slippery slope that can be re-adjusted upon the paticular whims of a society at the time. Take for example the President of the United States. Since he falls under a group that is federally protected from discrimination, (federal employee), what is to stop making illegal critisism of his policies or his nature?

After all, if it is a crime to voice my opinion about the activities about homosexual conduct, how much of a step is it to take to outlaw any dissenting opinion regarding official presidential policy. All of the sudden, Bush is a blooming idiot that should be commited to an insane asylum, is "banned speech", and punishable by 10 years in a federal penetantary. To regulate the expression of opinions is to directly infringe upon not only the letter of the first amendment, but also the spirit of it. To me, "hate" crimes punish no more than the thoughts involved behind the speech or action. Hate speech makes CrimeThink a reality. Also, as you have probably noticed from her show, she does say "In my never to be humble opinion. She explicity states that all material emmited from her mouth is nothing but opinion, unless stated otherwise.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat do you consider "hate" speech? I disagree with practicing in homosexual activities, as I believe it is unnatural., and I don't want to be around people who are are stuck on themselves, they just drag me down. Or would you consider I'm gonna go kill me some fags., and Time to go stomp some snobs.

The first nearly crosses the line, depending on context (though if the "unnatural" bit was left off, it would not). The second is not. The third and fourth are.

With the qualifing clause "I believe", it is nothing more than an experssion of opinion. If you were to delete this key prase, it would be liable for libel, because that writing would be presumed to be stated as a fact, (which it is not, it is entirely subjective), hence, it would invite a civil suit for libel. However, to qualify that as "hate" speech, or slander even with the qualifier "I believe", is nothing but regulation of CrimeThink. Well, like Orwell said in 1984, "NewSpeak is the only language that shrinks over time. By eliminating words from the vocabulary, we limit the ability to even have CrimeThought. In a few generations, CrimeThink will not even be possible, because the language requred to express such thoughts will simply not exist."[/i] Political correctness is the real version of NewSpeak.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you consider the third and fourth examples to be "hate speech", I agree that it probably is. If you think the first and second examples are "hate speech", then your bar is pretty low to be hate speech. Dr. Laura does the first and second examples quite often, but I have never heard her use the third and fourth examples. BTW, if you think the first and second examples are "hate speech", then it must be that any and all dissent from the "Official Liberal Stance" must be "hate speech".

How does "it must be that any and all dissent from the Official Liberal Stance must be hate speech" follow from "You consider the third and fourth examples to be hate speech"?

You are standing on a bank of a stream. You see the first stepping stone, as well as the last. However, you cannot see the stones which compose the pathway. As such, you choose the route that is most likely to take you upon the correct path to reach the unseen stepping stones. You have an 80% success rate. You may get wet a few times from falling, but the end vision is eventually reached. (Jumping to conclusions.)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'A')lso, regarding the "Official Liberal Stance," I'm not sure what you mean. Academic liberalism seems to be based solidly in fact and reason, whereas both American liberalism and conservativism are based in fancy ideologies that have little real meaning.

What I'm talking about is this:
"Members and front oranizations must continually emberass, discredit and degrade our critics. When obstructionists become too irritating, label them as fasisict, or Nazi or anti-Semetic ... The association will, after enough repetion, become "fact" in the public mind."
--Moscow Central Commitee, 1943

The American liberals seem to be following this advice quite well. If there is dissent from thier official stance, the liberals will engage in name calling, humiliation, and embarassment to affect public opinion of the opposing individuals. Whether they do this because of lack of an actual argument, or because they are strictly following the communist propaganda, I do not know. It still does not change the fact that they engage in such tecniques. Lenin had a phrase for these people: Useful Idiots.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')insberg can read whatever the hell she wants, whenever the hell she wants, so long as it does not interfere with the oath she took to get her that seat. Namely, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. She could read Trotsky or Karl Marx if she wanted to, (and she probably does), if it does not interfere with appointed position. Also, where do you draw the line for foriegn law influencing domestic law? Should muslims be allowed to practice Sharia Law? How about we forbid women to drive, or make dissent a capitol offence? How about a 95% income tax? Or require that calisthenics are done every morining at 0400?

This has nothing to do with my point. If justice Ginsberg read a foreign legal opinion, and realized that it was a sound interpretation of a similar bit of U.S. law, it shouldn't matter that the idea had popped into a non-American's head first. Most of our laws and values are not originally American, but are drawn from a diverse set of ideologies throughout history.

So, what logic is there in supporting that a 17 year old cannot be executed for a murder, just because the offender was underage at the time of the offense? 17 years of age is surely enough to determine correct actions from incorrect actions.

Being just one year shy of legal majority is no excuse for suspending the exection on grounds of the eighth amendment. It matters none if Germany finds that minors are incapable of being executed as punishment of thier crimes due to the sole fact they were a few months short of legal majority. If the convicted individual was fit to stand trial, then they are of sound mental facilities to realize that unjustifiable homicide is immoral and illegal. The party thought they were as mature and responsible as an adult when the crime was commited,and they can serve the adult sentence for that crime.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'M')y counter-example for your question of where to draw the line would be this: nearly every shade and sub-position within any possibly conceivable legal framework has already been thought of by someone who was not an American. It would be literally impossible to define any legal position that avoided the influence of a non-American person.

Yes, as the recent ED decision has proven. Wars have been fought over less than state-sanctioned property seizure on grounds of tax contribution.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ecause by allowing ED to apply to circumstances to increase government revenue, the government is now officially just letting you rent the land that you thought you owned. And they will only let you rent it until they have somebody willing to pay a higher rent, (tax). The reason it is a liberal decision, is because it gives the government even more power than it had before. Liberals today aren't on the side of "the little guy", they are on the side of ever-increasing government influence in citizens lives. Anything that can be done to increase that power, liberals tend to support.

This is the confusing part of American politics (at least, it confuses me why more people don't get this). Liberalism has nothing to do with big government unless it will ensure more general prosperity to increase government.

So liberals aren't for big government, unless it is thier direct actions which cause that big government? That sounds like a double standard to me. I want a small and unobtrusive government that keeps out of my life and private affiars.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'F')DR saw that this was the best way out of the depression, so he increased the size of government. Since then, such increases have been associated with liberalism, but they should not be, especially when they no longer increase prosperity. There are very, very few actual liberals in American politics today, and some of them, ironically, are labelled as conservatives.

If it should not be associated with modern American liberalism, then who should it be associated with? Certianly not the true conservitives, (Note NOT neo-cons).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'L')iberalism, as I understand it, is defined by the notion that laws and methods of government ought to change over time, as circumstances change, so as to bring about the most prosperity for the people governed. Government itself ought to have no other purpose.

As I have understood it to date is that Liberals favor abrupt changes in government policy as the situation dictates, while conservitives wish that if the government should need to change, it should be done gradually, as to allow time for adaptation by the population base which it affects. And you are correct that government ought to have no other purpose, but it does. The modern role for government is to repress the population, and force them to conform to the status quo. With the advent of modern media, and a reduction of the literate rate, population control has become only that much easier. We as a people play directly into the hands of the MSM and TPTB.

And we believe we are "free" because we do not have any issues when conforming to the offical government stance, (while not realizing it). We have devolved into a nation of, "You are free to do as you will, so long as it isn't deemed illegal." We have elected the government entities to defend us, but they only offend us. If you don't believe this, just go to a gunshow and start talking about how to convert random guns to FA mode, or discuss silencer construction. You will be charged with "Coniracy to violate federal firearms statutes", and it will stick too. The next time you are pulled over or stopped by police, and they ask to search your vehicle, refuse a consentual search. When the government comes to buy out your house for an underappraised value by abuse of the condemnation laws, refuse to evict your home until you get just compensation. Go smoke a bowl on main street at noon, and when arrested, quote the arresting officer the ninth amendment to the Untied States of America Constitution. The next time you get a fine for $20.00, demand a jury trial to contest the fine. You'll see how truly free we are.

Our freedom is just a facade. We say we are free, but we roll over to be swatted on the ass whenever the government thinks it is nessecary to "keep us inline". We are under occupation by a silent foriegn government. I agree with Molon Labe, when the author said that we either need to act like free men, or they like occupiers. We either roll over like a puppy with a urine soaked belly, or we stand up and fight. It is high time that we stopped riding on the backs of a few patriots from over 229 years ago. As Thomas Jefferson stated, "...The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants." There is no middle ground. We are either slaves, or freemen. We cannot be both. It is impossible to be an enslaved freeman, or a free slave. It is oxymoronic.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'N')ow, this word "prosperity" is a little ambiguous. What I mean by it is probably what another person might mean by "general happiness". I don't mean that government ought to ensure everyone makes as much money as possible (though it ought to ensure that people at least have the opportunity to make a decent living and be fairly socially mobile). In a defensive war, government may press young men into military service and send them to their deaths. While obviously not providing for their prosperity, overall, the people will prosper because of that action.

Not nessecarily. In the event of domestic insurrection, who would it be gaurenteeing prosperity for? Either way, whether the union is held together or not, economic and personal losses will occur. What logic is there in stopping a state from leaving the Union? While it may seem to be in the interests of the federal authority to eliminate the uprising, it would end up actually costing them quite a bit even if they were successful.

If the state is retained within the union, then the federal government would rebiuld it, which would cause economic hardship not only in the war zone, but nationwide due to ever-increasing debit. However, if the state were allowed to peacefully leave the union, the federal government may have a trading partner in the future, allowing economic prosperity for all parties involved. The only explanation I can see for retaining a defecting state is to keep ahold of a strong federal government.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey might as well, the fifth amendment has been completly destroyed by the ED ruling, the fourth and sixth by allowing US citizens to be detained for indefinate periods without reason or trial if they are declared an "enemy combatant". Although the constitution does allow the writ of habeus corpus to be suspended in times of war, no such declaration has been made, therefore it is unconstitutional. With these two rulings, habeus corpus is effectivly suspended forever, but not officially.

I think you may actually be seeing my point from the other side. Bush, a supposedly conservative politician, has increased government power to intrude into the private life of American citizens, expressly against the constitution. The point I am making is that very, very few politicians, whether they call themselves liberal or conservative, are actually concerned with the welfare of the American people. Government is about protecting the wealthy, now, and "liberals" work one side of the coin while "conservatives" work the other.

I have no disagreements here. Government is corrupt. It always has been, and always will be.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f it really needs changed so bad, a process exists for that known as amending. See article five. The founding fathers were aware that changes may need to be made, which is why this process exists. Yes, it is very difficult to change the constitution, but it should be. To quote the Declaration of Independence:

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

I'm not talking about changing the constitution formally. I'm talking about decisions involving the application of common and case law. The constitution could be almost infinitely ammended, and it wouldn't avoid the necessity of interpretation. And it should be interpretted according to the highest moral lights available at a given time (say I). But those lights change, and with them should change how the constitution is applied.

Good point, from 1886 to 1554 was quite a change, and both rulings did not infringe upon the 14th amendments, (although I do think that the 1886 ruling was ill concieved.) However, it dosen't change the fact that the fourteenth amendment did not include corporations as citizens.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'I') agree that the Supreme court, along with every other branch of government, is more or less a criminal syndicate. The constitution is completely trashed (well, not quite completely, but well nigh). My objection to this article is the author's remedy, which would actually only make things worse. What we need is not intellectual xenophobia, but sound reasoning, prudence and care in governing, and genuine justice and fairness. We're getting that from neither side.

I agree 100%.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'F')inally, this seems to be a good place to warn that if we slavishly obey even our founding documents, we are in serious danger. People used to consider the Bible to be nearly infallible, to be the document that people looked to whenever there was a dispute about how various parties ought to behave. I find it a little disturbing that, even in the face of superior argumentation and evidence, some people will resort to looking at the Constitution or the Declaration of independence as if they are divinely inspired. They were written by some very smart, savvy men. They were written by men of deep dignity and character. But they were written by men, and those men might become wrong if their opinions are applied to modern circumstance.

If the constitution needs changed, that is what the process of amending it is for. Any change that needs to be made to it can be done through the amendment process. Since the only prohibited amendments were regarding the importation and duty of persons prior to the year 1808, that no longer applies since it is now 2005. If something needs drastically changed, then it can be through amendment. It can be adapted to modern times, but it is very difficult to do so. Amending the constitution requires passage by 2/3 of both houses, and 3/4 of all state legislatures. It has been done in the past, and it will be done again if deemed nessecary. That is the bueaty of the constitution. It recongnised that it may need changed due to the progression of time and changing of ideals, and it gave a means to remedy the need to adapt it to changing times. To disregard the amendment process is to disregard the constitution. To disregard the constitution is to fail to uphold the oath of office or position to which the parties were sworn. Failure to uphold the oaths upon which they were sworn is grounds for dismissal. Personally, I would go one step further, and declare all persons betraying their oaths to be trators, but unfortunatly that does not meet the definition for treason. Although I am sure with a competent lawyer, there could be sufficient evidence to giving aid or comfort to the enemies of the United States, (esp. international communists).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')eah right, a liberal president would never reduce the influence of the Nanny State.

If I were president, I would take steps to do so, though there are many other things I would also change. Again, "liberal" is a term that is defined differently in history and in American politics today.

I meant modern American Liberal, not classical liberalism, nor Libertarianism. I support the Libertarians, just not the communists posing as Democrats and RINOs. (Like GWB-->RINO)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t will only expand until it eventually becomes so large, that it will collapse under it's own weight. Just look at the USSR. According to the liberals, it should have been peace on earth. Look at New Orleans. It has been in Democratic control for the last 60 years. If liberalism were actually effective, there should have been no crime, no "class struggle", (wow, right out of the Communist Manifesto), no blight, no corruption, a dike that worked, and nothing but pure harmony. Obviously, that is not, and was not the case. Liberalism fails once again.

New Orleans is not a good example because it, like all other American cities, is subject to State and Federal laws, some of which were crafted by conservative politicians.

The money was there, it was just siphoned off for other pet projects, and politician raises. Corruption has very deep roots. If you thought buttonweed was obnoxious, try rooting out corruption. It will take you the rest of your natural life. I am beginning to come to the conclusion that the best way to eradicate the field of Liberty of the weed of Tyrants would be just to burn the whole crop, and reseed the plot. It would be much more expediant than roaming down the rows to rescue the dying Liberty plants. It's time for a new crop. Hopefully the new breed will be more pest resistant than the last batch. I'm quite sure with some change in the fertalizer mix, (the US Constitution), the weed of Corruption would have a much harder time taking root.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'A')s for Russia:

1) It wasn't as bad as people in America have been led to believe, especially post Stalin. I know several people from Russia.

So, what were the gulags and work camps for? How about trashing and burning of farmers homes because they refused to surrender thier assets to the collective? (wow, that sounds familar! *cough*WACO*cough*RUBY RIDGE*cough*

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '2')) It was never actually practicing the communism envisioned by Marx and Engles anyway. No country ever has, though Bhutan comes the closest in my opinion. And it is probably as close to paradise as one gets on earth.

Even on paper the proposal of Communism sucks. Abolishment of private property, instituting mandantory property rental, a heavy progressive income tax, abolition of all inheritence rights, confinscation of property of rebels or emegrants, centralisation of credit in federal power, centralisation of communication and transportation in federal power, regulation of agricultural produce, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country; by a more equitable distribution of population over the country, and mandantory government regulated education for all children.

All of this has been done to a certian extent. The only one plank left to have quite a start of Communism here in the USA: The seventh which mandates mandantory labor by all parties, and collective farming. It seems that McCarthy was right. There were, (and are), communists amongst us. They are in every branch of the government, and they control the mass media. We will soon the the USSR we so hated until they collapsed. Welcome to the USSA.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'ll tell you why. They are communist sympathisers that wish for the return of the USSR, but with worldwide influence. They are the "one-worlders" that believe that government is God, and the Supreme Court is thier tempel of worship.

I'm a communist sympathizer, but I don't yearn for a return of the U.S.S.R., or for Chinese dominance, or any other such thing. I've actually read Marx, and I understand his point, which seems imminently reasonable to me. It ignores only one thing about human nature (namely, the ambition that some people have to rise above others), and that fact unravels it in a practical sense. What I hope is that people will wise up and figure out that labels, especially in America, have become almost like Telesmata that divert attention from the real issues.


8O

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'T')o me (and apparently to the founding fathers), government should be primarily concerned with the overall weal of the people being governed. What we have now, however, is a government that cares nothing for the people it governs. We should not be beholden to useless platitudes when people are in great need.

I agree 100%. What I need is the government to keep thier nose out of my affiars. If I do something, and other people are not forced to endure it, then they have no reason to tell me what I can or cannot do. If I wish to blow off 100 rounds in under a miniute, I should be able to with no problems so long as I do not shoot anybody if no threat is present. I exercize reasonable force to protect myself, the government should do the same. Leave alone what is best left alone. You can only kick a dog so much before you get your jugular bit out. The United States of America citizens are that dog, and we are starting to growl. The care-taker better change his ways, or out come the fangs with 70 LB of meat moving at 15 MPH behind it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o, it wasn't the right thing. If it was, an amendment could have been proposed to give corporations personhood. They did it for the blacks and indian population, obviously they did not include corporate entities in the fourteenth amendment. A corporation is no more of a person, than I am a corporation.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'O')f course it was the right thing to do. It was the begining of the industrial era, and economies were changing rapidly. Laws protecting corporate charters were necessary to sustain the new economy.

Then why not just have congress pass a law to do just that? It wouldn't requre a supreme court ruling, merely a law to be enacted by congress. Laws are easier to repeal than constitutional amendments. (whether by a sunset provision or 51% majority matters not, it is still repealed).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'U')nfortunately, they went too far, and should have been repealed and re-written after a couple decades.

I agree 100%.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'B')ut they were not; and we have conservative thinking to thank for that. We should have changed as times changed. That is the essence of liberalism. That we maintained laws that no longer served the people is to be blamed on conservatives of the day.

Classical liberals, (Libertarians), I have no problem with. I may in fact be one. I don't know for sure yet, I have not read enough libertarian literature to fully understand thier political stance. What I have seen so far, I agree with. It is just the modern American liberals, (closet communists), that I have a problem with. If they think communism is so damned great, why don't they move to the DPRK to fully deploy thier philosophy? Probably because they know exactly what they would be getting into.

"All Amimals are equal, some are more equal than others."
--George Orwell, Animal Farm

"Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
--George Orwell, Animal Farm

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ashurbanipal', 'A')nyway, you think the rightness or wrongness of something is determined by whether there was an amendment to the constitution enacted? In certian aspects, yes. In others, no. Depends upon what you are asking about.
Here Lies the United States Of America.

July 04, 1776 - June 23 2005

Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

Eminent Domain Was The Murderer.
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