I am a gay, urban male, as are my best friends to date. However, none of them want to hear about Peak Oil, much less do anything to prepare for it or the economic collapse that will likely accompany it, perhaps within months. Meanwhile, I am learning to grow food, taking a bicycle repair course, and researching locations for a rural homestead.
My best friend, whom I've been close to for 23 years said: "Yes, there will probably be a collapse. But who are you to try to save yourself when the rest of us are going to die? Why can't you just forget about it and have a good time while you can?"
I have made a couple of new local friends who accept Peak Oil and want to prepare for it, but I am facing the painful prospect of losing lifelong friends because I cannot let go of wanting to increase my chances of living past 50.
Has anyone else faced this? How have you dealt with this kind of rejection by your closest friends or family?
PeakOil is You
ostracism
Re: ostracism
by Aaron » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 18:14:14
I have been volunteering on this board for almost 2 years...
Timing is everything.... well almost everything.
Prepare... don't burn bridges...
Calm your mind... panic never succeeds...
Think outside your narrow world...
When the sun sets tonight... look up. If it's just us... what a waste of space.
There are bigger issues than if you or I survive.
We think of ourselves as citizens of Earth... but we are also citizens of the Milky Way.
Perhaps someone is looking back at you across the cosmos... Facing peak... whatever.
We should all band together and seek a compromise with the Universe.
So far... no joy.
It ain't over till the fat lady sings... & maybe not even then.
Timing is everything.... well almost everything.
Prepare... don't burn bridges...
Calm your mind... panic never succeeds...
Think outside your narrow world...
When the sun sets tonight... look up. If it's just us... what a waste of space.
There are bigger issues than if you or I survive.
We think of ourselves as citizens of Earth... but we are also citizens of the Milky Way.
Perhaps someone is looking back at you across the cosmos... Facing peak... whatever.
We should all band together and seek a compromise with the Universe.
So far... no joy.
It ain't over till the fat lady sings... & maybe not even then.
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.
Hazel Henderson
Hazel Henderson
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Re: ostracism
by marko » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 18:27:50
Hey Aaron,
That is all very poetic, and I agree with the parts I understand, but I am not sure what you are trying to say.
I am not burning bridges. I feel like my friends are rejecting me because I am putting energy into preparing for a crash.
I am not rejecting them. I am prepared to take them in when the time comes and benefit from my preparation, even if they won't take part in it.
Are you suggesting that my friend is right and that I should not prepare? This way I don't risk losing the friend for the couple of years that we can go on living like this, but then we both die or end up in a refugee camp. What would be the good of that?
Mark
That is all very poetic, and I agree with the parts I understand, but I am not sure what you are trying to say.
I am not burning bridges. I feel like my friends are rejecting me because I am putting energy into preparing for a crash.
I am not rejecting them. I am prepared to take them in when the time comes and benefit from my preparation, even if they won't take part in it.
Are you suggesting that my friend is right and that I should not prepare? This way I don't risk losing the friend for the couple of years that we can go on living like this, but then we both die or end up in a refugee camp. What would be the good of that?
Mark
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marko - Coal
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Re: ostracism
by Ludi » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 19:02:56
I'm not sure how preparing for hard times would necessarily preclude enjoying yourself now...you can still have good times with your friends, can't you? And just not talk about PO if they don't want to hear it right now?
- Ludi
Re: ostracism
by NordicThora » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 19:09:20
Marko,
I too have experienced the kind of ostracism you mention from friends, although not from my closest friend - mostly from old friends who don't live near me, and therefore aren't really impacted much by the scope of my PO preparations. It's still painful, though.
I am very fortunate in that my closest friend is also a "die-off doomer" like me. Even though my friend and I are both fully aware of the implications of PO, we're also acutely aware of the need to keep a sense of humor in difficult times.
The whole doomer mentality has become something of a running joke between us. One of us will mention the latest piece of news about PO or global climate change or avian influenza or whatever, and the other will say, with appropriate facial expressions and gestures: "WE'RE ALL GONNA F**KIN' DIE!"
Of course we're only *half* kidding...
Anyway...the problem of ostracism from long-time friends is indeed a serious one for many reasons, not the least of which is that you're highly likely to need your friends' help when TSHTF. Perhaps that's what Aaron was getting at with his "don't burn bridges" comment.
I don't know if reason would help much here, but...regarding your friend's comment "why can't you forget about it and have a good time while you can" - the underlying assumption there seems to be that "having a good time" and PO awareness are mutually exclusive, which (at least for me and the other doomers I know) is hardly the case. In fact, I'd argue just the oppposite: PO awareness has made me confront my own mortality, which in turn has deepened my appreciation for how little time we really have, and therefore how important it is to live it to the fullest.
As for preparing for collapse, particularly if your plans include leaving the city and moving onto a rural homestead, one possibilty is that your friend is simply not prepared to undertake a change of that magnitude. As a lifelong city dweller who recently tried (and failed, for various reasons) to start an ecovillage, I speak from personal experience when I say that it's easy for city-bred folk to underestimate the scope and breadth of such a radical change in lifestyle. It takes enormous motivation, dedication, tenacity, courage, and skill to pull it off, and even if you have all those things, there will be immense challenges. Without social support, it may well be next to impossible.
I don't mean to discourage you from preparing, not at all! In fact I think it's great that you're doing active prep. I'm just suggesting that you try to put yourself in your friend's shoes, and consider various reasons why he may be resisting the changes you're embarking upon. One of them might be the magnitude of the change required - he may not think he's up to it, whereas you may want to do something more radical.
Of course, I don't know if this will be adequate to address the estrangement you're experiencing between the two of you, but it might help bridge the gap somewhat.
Friends sometimes do grow apart, of course, and sometimes that should just be accepted. But in the case of a 23-year friendship, it seems to me it's worth as much effort as you can muster to preserve it.
Best of luck, in any case. I know how frustrating, sad, and disheartening it can be to feel estranged from a longtime friend.
-Thora
I too have experienced the kind of ostracism you mention from friends, although not from my closest friend - mostly from old friends who don't live near me, and therefore aren't really impacted much by the scope of my PO preparations. It's still painful, though.
I am very fortunate in that my closest friend is also a "die-off doomer" like me. Even though my friend and I are both fully aware of the implications of PO, we're also acutely aware of the need to keep a sense of humor in difficult times.
The whole doomer mentality has become something of a running joke between us. One of us will mention the latest piece of news about PO or global climate change or avian influenza or whatever, and the other will say, with appropriate facial expressions and gestures: "WE'RE ALL GONNA F**KIN' DIE!"
Of course we're only *half* kidding...
Anyway...the problem of ostracism from long-time friends is indeed a serious one for many reasons, not the least of which is that you're highly likely to need your friends' help when TSHTF. Perhaps that's what Aaron was getting at with his "don't burn bridges" comment.
I don't know if reason would help much here, but...regarding your friend's comment "why can't you forget about it and have a good time while you can" - the underlying assumption there seems to be that "having a good time" and PO awareness are mutually exclusive, which (at least for me and the other doomers I know) is hardly the case. In fact, I'd argue just the oppposite: PO awareness has made me confront my own mortality, which in turn has deepened my appreciation for how little time we really have, and therefore how important it is to live it to the fullest.
As for preparing for collapse, particularly if your plans include leaving the city and moving onto a rural homestead, one possibilty is that your friend is simply not prepared to undertake a change of that magnitude. As a lifelong city dweller who recently tried (and failed, for various reasons) to start an ecovillage, I speak from personal experience when I say that it's easy for city-bred folk to underestimate the scope and breadth of such a radical change in lifestyle. It takes enormous motivation, dedication, tenacity, courage, and skill to pull it off, and even if you have all those things, there will be immense challenges. Without social support, it may well be next to impossible.
I don't mean to discourage you from preparing, not at all! In fact I think it's great that you're doing active prep. I'm just suggesting that you try to put yourself in your friend's shoes, and consider various reasons why he may be resisting the changes you're embarking upon. One of them might be the magnitude of the change required - he may not think he's up to it, whereas you may want to do something more radical.
Of course, I don't know if this will be adequate to address the estrangement you're experiencing between the two of you, but it might help bridge the gap somewhat.
Friends sometimes do grow apart, of course, and sometimes that should just be accepted. But in the case of a 23-year friendship, it seems to me it's worth as much effort as you can muster to preserve it.
Best of luck, in any case. I know how frustrating, sad, and disheartening it can be to feel estranged from a longtime friend.
-Thora
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Re: ostracism
by marko » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 19:40:10
Thanks, everyone, for your helpful words.
The truth is that a time is likely to come when I will have to leave my old friends behind if they are determined to stay in the city until the bitter end. Meanwhile, I am working on making new friends who are interested in making this transition with me.
Up to now, I have always shared every aspect of my life with my best friend, but I think that Ludi is right that I have to stop talking about this rather big aspect now. We are not yet really estranged. But the friendship has been strained by his abhorrence of this topic.
The truth is that a time is likely to come when I will have to leave my old friends behind if they are determined to stay in the city until the bitter end. Meanwhile, I am working on making new friends who are interested in making this transition with me.
Up to now, I have always shared every aspect of my life with my best friend, but I think that Ludi is right that I have to stop talking about this rather big aspect now. We are not yet really estranged. But the friendship has been strained by his abhorrence of this topic.
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marko - Coal
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Re: ostracism
by Guest » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 19:47:46
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('marko', ' ')"Yes, there will probably be a collapse. But who are you to try to save yourself when the rest of us are going to die? Why can't you just forget about it and have a good time while you can?"
Who are you to try and save yourself? You're a human being with a right to survive. Why can't you just forget about it? Because you're not a mindless consumer lemming like your friend, who will wish desperately he had acted as you have when things get bad.
I agree that you shouldn't burn bridges. Don't turn trying to convince others about Peak Oil into an ego contest. Maybe there's still time for him to come around, and if he does - great. But don't let the idiotic ostracism of the willfully ignorant like him deter you from doing what you have to do to survive.
- Guest
Re: ostracism
by some_guy282 » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 19:52:57
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Anonymous', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('marko', ' ')"Yes, there will probably be a collapse. But who are you to try to save yourself when the rest of us are going to die? Why can't you just forget about it and have a good time while you can?"
Who are you to try and save yourself? You're a human being with a right to survive. Why can't you just forget about it? Because you're not a mindless consumer lemming like your friend, who will wish desperately he had acted as you have when things get bad.
I agree that you shouldn't burn bridges. Don't turn trying to convince others about Peak Oil into an ego contest. Maybe there's still time for him to come around, and if he does - great. But don't let the idiotic ostracism of the willfully ignorant like him deter you from doing what you have to do to survive.
That was me. Forgot to log in.
In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule. – Nietzsche
Time makes more converts than reason. – Thomas Paine
History is a set of lies agreed upon. – Napoleon Bonaparte
Time makes more converts than reason. – Thomas Paine
History is a set of lies agreed upon. – Napoleon Bonaparte
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Re: ostracism
by ubercynicmeister » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 21:35:36
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('marko', 'I') am a gay, urban male, as are my best friends to date. However, none of them want to hear about Peak Oil, much less do anything to prepare for it or the economic collapse that will likely accompany it, perhaps within months. Meanwhile, I am learning to grow food, taking a bicycle repair course, and researching locations for a rural homestead.
My best friend, whom I've been close to for 23 years said: "Yes, there will probably be a collapse. But who are you to try to save yourself when the rest of us are going to die? Why can't you just forget about it and have a good time while you can?"
I have made a couple of new local friends who accept Peak Oil and want to prepare for it, but I am facing the painful prospect of losing lifelong friends because I cannot let go of wanting to increase my chances of living past 50.
Has anyone else faced this? How have you dealt with this kind of rejection by your closest friends or family?
My best friend, whom I've been close to for 23 years said: "Yes, there will probably be a collapse. But who are you to try to save yourself when the rest of us are going to die? Why can't you just forget about it and have a good time while you can?"
I have made a couple of new local friends who accept Peak Oil and want to prepare for it, but I am facing the painful prospect of losing lifelong friends because I cannot let go of wanting to increase my chances of living past 50.
Has anyone else faced this? How have you dealt with this kind of rejection by your closest friends or family?
Firstly, welcome to the world, as it really is.
The Modern Consumer Ethic seems to be: "Smash, grab as much as you can, eat, drink, have illicit sex, cheat on your partner and the more brazen the cheating the better; be cluelessly self-indulgent, always try to get away with whatever you can and don't give a second's thought to tomorrow, 'cause tomorrow never gets here."
I'm, not really sure what being homosexual may or may not have to do with introducing the topic of Peak oil - though it could be considerably off-putting to potential partners if one were to introduce oneself by saying: "Hi, I'm Joe (or Fred or whatever you name is), and did you know we're all gonna end up in a sort of Hell-On-Earth existence where it will be a cannabalistic survival of the fittest once the production of oil on the planet starts to decline? Oh, and can I have sex with you?"
This approach is unlikely to work.
Most people (homosexual, straight, bisexual, or - as most people are, especially the married ones - simply celebate) can't absorb that amount of information, all at once.
Break down the info into bits and pieces that others CAN absorb, and you'll find that you become a sort of "authority" on the subject and people will (of their own accord) "consult". For example the price of fuel affects everyone...start some "stuff" (articles, discussion groups, "pillow talk about fuel" sessions, whatever) on the Price of Fuel and how to get the most for your dollar, and you'll get the genuine ones along. Besides making you feel self-important, this will spread information.
Think of the topic from your audience's point-of-view...why the heck would one need to "grow food" or "repair bicylces" when the oil-subsidised version has never failed us yet? And because something hasn't happened yet, therefore it can never happen, right?
In the same way, if you'd predicted to your freinds on Sept 10th, 2001 that "tomorrow, someone's gonna fly a coupla planes into the side of the Trade Centre Towers in New York", they'd have scoffed the same because "it had never happened before." - and they'd be right, it hadn't happened before.
But it don't mean that it cannot happen.
The hostile ones (I've met them too, and the better educated they are the more openly hostile they are to hearing about Peak Oil) will keep you on your toes, and will keep you from feeling ANY form of self importance, so that will balance the "self-importance" thing out, nicely.
"Rejection" by one's friends and family? Hell's Bells as far as I know, the ONLY thing that works there is a long-term thing of being as courteous as possible.
The trouble is, firstly the "Peak Oil" idea is very confronting. So the person who is told about Peak Oil gets the idea (mistakenly, sometimes, - often it depends on the speaker's vocal inflexions) that Peak Oil is just there to provide cover for the Oil industry. This is why Greenpeace still thinks Peak oil is all a "front" put up by Big Oil to distract everyone from Global warming, and anyone who thinks that Peak Oil is gonna happen Isn't A true Greenie Believer (etc etc).
How anyone could come to that conclusion, given the numbers of people here at these boards who do think Peak Oil is a certainty, and also think Global Warming is also happening, well, I leave that question for Greenpeace to answer.
The non-Greenie hearer is "hostile" because they are hurting in the wallet, and now some "idiot" is comin' along to provide a convenient excuse for the Oil companies to price gouge (etc etc).
Secondly, if the Price of Oil then DOES go up (and it will), the person who was hostile suddenly has even more reason to be hostile - firstly, they already think you're providing an excuse for Big Oil, THEN you're proven right in your predictions of Oil going up in price....this adds salt to the wound. There's nothing more annoying than someone who will start talking about something unpleasant - in direct defiance of hostility - and then for that person to be proven right. This is where the Puritans got it right for once: Damned if you do, Damned if you don't. Note Well: crowing about "being right" is a sure-fire way of turning one's ENTIRE audience against one. It might be difficult to resist, but don't do it.
This is why the diplomatic approach is much more successful. Diplomacy is defined either as the polite way of getting someone else to do your will for you, or; as the ability to tell someone to go to Hell in such a way as they look forward to the trip and the reception at their destination.
"Dealing with rejection"? Firstly, avoid empty jargon & cliches, like "dealing with rejection".
Secondly, put everything you have to say in forms of humour - that's difficult, I know, but practice. Humour and a good nature have disarmed more beasts than any form of bold frontal attack. This is why those sharks one sees at the average Oceanarium are actually quite harmless....they are so stuffed with fish (and kept that way) that they have zero inclination to actually try to eat anything else, especially if it's wearing a wetsuit.
Finally, directly opposite of my own posting, keep it short and simple. KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. This will allow you to gauge your audience and see what they're actually receptive to.
I know, I know, the information will be BUSTING to get out, and you'll feel like blurting it out , but don't. Test the waters, first.
Make a few Oil-related jokes, see what the reaction is. Then, if it's "Ok" by the audience, throw a few more tag-lines out. The if they are received without any display of overt opposition, start with small bits of info. Don't put too much info into it, or you'll deluge people. You're there to inform, not brow-beat.
Above all, if one of more persons decides to "get angry" with you, just shut up, and try to maintain a carefully neutral expression on your face. If they start brow-beating you and screaming and yelling, they will be the ones who're turning everyone against them. No-one likes a verbal bully, and you may actually find that such a thing helps - others who were mildly interested will come up to you afterwards and ask about what it is you wanted to say before so-and-so started screaming, and wasn't he completely immature (etc)
I find the following to be quite effective in "confronting" an aggresive situation: "I'm just tryin' to save others some money at the fuel bowser. Hey, if you don't wanna hear how to save money, that's fine by me. " That's the best point to turn and walk away. By saying this in a mild-mannered way, you will have gotten the audience on your side.
I hope what I've written helps.
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Whoa, that's me. I'm not a "guest." Forgot to log in.
