[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'M')mmm, yes and no.
While you can change the framework around the contract, you cannot change the framework of the contract itself unless the changes (Or ability to change) are written into the original contract.
While the framework around the contract has changed (Bankruptcy laws) the contract itself has not changed.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'M')mmm, yes and no.
While you can change the framework around the contract, you cannot change the framework of the contract itself unless the changes (Or ability to change) are written into the original contract.
While the framework around the contract has changed (Bankruptcy laws) the contract itself has not changed.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'W')hat rules? That you cant borrow money then not pay it back?
Will the new bankruptcy laws affect me? No, because i dont (usually ) live beyond my means. I dont carry debt thats not absolutely essential. I live a responsible, mature lifestyle and I understand some things I want I cannot immediately afford. And as such, rather then live irresponsibly and "buy now pay later" I work hard and save my money.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'W')hat rules? That you cant borrow money then not pay it back?
Will the new bankruptcy laws affect me? No, because i dont (usually ) live beyond my means. I dont carry debt thats not absolutely essential. I live a responsible, mature lifestyle and I understand some things I want I cannot immediately afford. And as such, rather then live irresponsibly and "buy now pay later" I work hard and save my money.

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')Now whose needs do you think the gov was responding to when it changed the bankruptcy laws?

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'b')ut no one seems to be arguing about the economic consequences of the changes in bankrupcy laws. it looks like we have a looming wave of defaulting coming up. regardless of whether we are sypmathetic to the lenders or borrowers in this arrangement, what will be the effect of the new laws coming into effect as this occurs? will we institute a debtor's prison? wage garnishing? wonder if i can get some opinions.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', '
')Oooh, I have an answer! Because it because clear that cracks forming in a mutually irresponsible system of lending and it was time to choose sides?

So, it seems like we can go around in circles on the morality of borrowing and lending without making much progress. though i have to say, good thread, all.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('aflurry', 'b')ut no one seems to be arguing about the economic consequences of the changes in bankrupcy laws. it looks like we have a looming wave of defaulting coming up. regardless of whether we are sypmathetic to the lenders or borrowers in this arrangement, what will be the effect of the new laws coming into effect as this occurs? will we institute a debtor's prison? wage garnishing? wonder if i can get some opinions.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'S')eeing as card carrying Republicans pay for the card carrying Democrats, I think that might cause some problems.

[jdmartin]

If anything, the new bankrutpcy laws should apply to credit that was induced or obtained after the new effective date. Any credit agreement that was entered into before that date should fall under the previous law's framework. As several on here have said, irrespective of the individual agreement between the creditor and the debtor, the debt was assumed under a set of laws that spelled out the risks and consequences of credit, as well as the avenues of relief. Altering those rules after the fact is unfair to the debtor. Just as altering the rules so that debtors could just say "shazam" and have all debts wiped away, regardless of ability to pay, would be unfair after the fact to the creditor.

Nonetheless, the whole thing is quite laughable. First of all, the creditor has already worked out the scenario concerning risk of default - it is contained within the interest rate. It is the reason that you can get a mortgage for 5.5%, but pay 10-20-30% interest on your credit cards. The lender knows that there will be a certain percentage of unsecured debt that will end up being written off, and compensates by charging those debtors a higher interest rate. I have 3 credit cards that I use on an occasional basis to keep them from going dormant - Amex, Visa, and MC. The highest interest rate is 8%, and the lowest is 3%. Why? Because the bank knows I am not a credit risk to default. Friends of mine have cards where they pay 25% interest. They are high-risk. So the bank collects their due "up front" from these people, knowing that they may end up tossing some of that debt. In any other system, credit card lending would be known as "loan sharking". What other system can the lender simply decide to jack the interest rate by 10% because they feel like it? Only those run by guys named "Vinnie".

The credit issuing companies have been having a field day for years. For starters, they all ran to Delaware in order to charge anything under the sun for interest, because many states had laws on the books that prevented this kind of loan-sharking. If I borrow $500 to buy a TV set at 10%, and make reasonable, on-time payments, why should the lender get to jack my rate to 20% because they feel like it? And this happens even to good customers. I have had it happen to me more than once. Of course, I get the last laugh when I get my notice, call up and cancel the card and leave those jackoffs begging for the business for a lower rate than I first had .

Still, in a sadistic way I'm kind of glad for the new laws, because it is going to screw the economy royally. The fact of the matter is if people cannot get credit today, they are not going to be buying anything. Lock a bunch of people on 5-year payoff plans, or max them out on their credit cards without bankruptcy, and see how many Wallyworld widgets they'll be hauling out to suburbanland. Everyone will end up screwed. I was in Best Buy yesterday and they're advertising 18 months, no interest. Why? Because they can't move that crap without it. Wait till John Doe is paying out every last cent to Citibank on his 5-year plan, and see how many flat-screens Best Buy moves. So what the hell, we'll all go down together...

I agree that there are people who purposely milk the system. There is no system on earth that can't be worked in some way. What it boils down to is if you believe that most people are good but just got in trouble, or that most people are dirtbags that need to be pounded for getting in trouble. The median household income (the new bankruptcy threshold) in my state (Tennessee) is about $37,000. So that's John Doe making $10 an hour, and his wife Jane making $7.75 an hour. I know a whole lot of John and Jane Doe's around here that look like this scenario, because they have to look like it since there's no $18 job for John so that Jane can stay home. Now pump in daycare, maybe, or 50 bucks a week out of John's take-home to cover dependant health care, and there ain't a whole lot to go around. One good car breakdown and the Does are screwed. However, we'll not let them clear out and try again, with the understanding that they have to make good for at least 7 years. No, what we'll do is put them on the 5-year plan, so that the next time the car breaks down, they'll just have to wait for Citibank to haul their ass into court to garnish their wages.

Sounds like a pretty fair system to me....oh, and before SpeCop calls me a bleeding heart liberal, I'll mention that I usually vote in the GOP primaries around here, though I try to go for the best worthless candidate in November.

[CrudeAwakening]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '
')Nonetheless, the whole thing is quite laughable. First of all, the creditor has already worked out the scenario concerning risk of default - it is contained within the interest rate. It is the reason that you can get a mortgage for 5.5%, but pay 10-20-30% interest on your credit cards. The lender knows that there will be a certain percentage of unsecured debt that will end up being written off, and compensates by charging those debtors a higher interest rate.

[linlithgowoil]

i have a lot of debt that ive built up during university. im only now managing to get a good grip on it though i wont be debt free for a while... most likely another 4 years, which is a bit depressing, but then i spent about 7 years building up debt, and its going to take around 7 years to get rid of it.

I dont buy useless crap, my debts are all for university fees, food (!), clothes, rent, insurance, all that crap.

the UK is a very expensive place to stay these days though.

[smiffy]

There are a lot of good points on this particular subjest,

However, some Bozzo's just dont know what there getting themselves into,

My brother inlaw is a lamen, he knows shit about finance and economics, so because he is so fucking blind and stupid, and he never ever owned his own home before, he went out and borrowed 150,000 UK sterline and is paying a debtor premium on the loan as he is high risk due to past credit card arrears, and know he can run round and boast to everyone who ever called him a loser, that he owns his own home!

Now he is in for a big shock? Why? because he works in an oil intensive industry and rely's on overtime to bump up his basic wage, coupled in with the fact that the BOE MPC will most probably continue with intrest rate rises to subdue inflation in the near term increasing his monthy payments, any energy induced economic downturn could render him unemployed and he could possibly lose his home,

Can he be blamed for being ignorant when fucking Tony Blair and Gordon Brown have been singing about our wonderful economy even as early as last week whilst they were politicking at ther annual conference?

And they were saying that the UK economy will continue to grow and perform?

There are so many poor saps out there that beleive that if Tony and Gordon said all will be well, then they must be right! So in the meantime they continue to run up debt on there credit cards thinking that they will have a job for ever and be able to pay all there debts sometime in there lifetime, so can they be blamed or can government be blamed for creating a false economy?

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'S')ad fact is where other govt's would be thinking of how best to ameliorate this situation, so the fewest people suffer, the neocon's first concern is to make sure financiers aren't left holding the bag.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'S')ad fact is where other govt's would be thinking of how best to ameliorate this situation, so the fewest people suffer, the neocon's first concern is to make sure financiers aren't left holding the bag.

[threadbear]

Advertizing plays on most of the deadly sins, greed and fear, imparticular. The very people who are the most vulnerable to this kind of advertizing, are likely the ones who have the most problems with impulse control. Kind of a nasty recipe for ongoing problems.

By your description of your debt free life, SpecOp, you have a pretty solid sense of yourself (like,--no kidding ) and some suspicion of authority, so that protects you from the sharks, fishy.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'A')dvertizing plays on most of the deadly sins, greed and fear, imparticular. The very people who are the most vulnerable to this kind of advertizing, are likely the ones who have the most problems with impulse control. Kind of a nasty recipe for ongoing problems.

By your description of your debt free life, SpecOp, you have a pretty solid sense of yourself (like,--no kidding ) and some suspicion of authority, so that protects you from the sharks, fishy.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'I')

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'I')

[actionreplay]

Miss actionreplay orders y'all to stop fighting during recess, and get back to class to today's prescribed text: "WHen Genius Failed, the Rise and FAll of LTCM" by Lowenstein.

People shouldn't borrow if they can't pay it back.

Financial institutions should not make loans if they cannot cover the risk premium.

In finance, you have the risk-reward theory. The idea is that high reward = high risk. You as an individual or a financial institution decide what level of risk/reward you are happy with and manage your affairs accordingly.

Banks whining that they didn't see it coming make me laugh - especially as they employ hundreds and thousand of financial risk managers! At least Joe Public has the excuse of not having a clue!

The law should not bail out either imho.... in UK, personal or indeed company bankruptcy is a BIG issue. It takes at least 7 years to clear your name, I believe.