[Aedo]

There is more than one answer to any question - especially when the question is as complex as PO!

The obvious now stated there are lots of ways to better utilise current resources (including waste) - this has potential to deliver a useful product but as Starvid has pointed out there is just not enough information available as yet. It will be interesting to see if the process is profitable in both EROEI and economic terms.

[aahala]

I thoght they had shut down the plant because the costs were greater than
what they could sell the product for.

The citizens of Carthage created a stink over the stink of the plant and
the State of MIssouri(finally) stepped in a while back. I'm sure if you google something like "Carthage,MO" and "smell" you'll get dozens if not
hundreds of hits about the odor. It apparently was really, really bad.

[strider3700]

this is thermal depolymerization(sp) correct? If so my understanding was to be at all efficient they needed a consistant feedstock which is ok in some cases but you can't just dump massive amounts of garbage into it and get back oil. the costs kept it above $60/barrel produced as well if I remember correctly.

[Googolplex]

This is not new. Its TDP, except called TCP instead.

While this could serve as a minor source of oil in the future, it still requires more energy to run it then it produces.

Personally, I think we should focus on ways to use LESS energy, not ways to increase our energy useage like this. Instead of sucking tons more power from the electric grid, lets just reduce the amount of oil we need.

[BrownDog]

http://www.mindfully.org/Air/2005/Chang ... 2apr05.htm

[Googolplex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Optimist', 'Y')ou know nothing about power generation, do you? A coal power plant converts between 15 and 20% of the energy in the coal to electricity. Compared to that 85% capture is staggering.

[sicophiliac]

Plant produces 500 barrels of oil a day, wow.. wed only need 10,000 of them to really make a dent in oil supply.

[Bluster]

Thank you for having my hopes dashed to pieces once again

[bruss01]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/09 ... index.html

Sounds like a Thermal Depolymerization type thing. Guy claims to run his car on them.

[Carrie]

They say that the exhaust from cars that run on vegetable oil smells like french fries. I wonder what dead cat exhaust would smell like?

[Optimist]

This is a great business opportunity for all PeakOilers: For the low-low cost of US$4 million you could be producing diesel for 0.24 Euro/liter [US$48/bbl], see http://www.transgasindustry.ru/diz2.shtml. Just think of the profits you will make when PO "hits".

Note the plant does not run on dead cats only, that was just a nice publicity stunt by Bild. "Capability: All Bio Mass" - http://www.globalfinest.com/tech/

Nice to see the waste to oil business is taking off, right in the nick of time.

[Googolplex]

Rest easy animal lovers! It should run just as well on dead people too!

[Optimist]

I notice that the new German invention (cats to diesel, if you fall for Bild's publicity stunt, see http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9339530/ ), KDV 500, see http://www.globalfinest.com/tech/ shows many similarities to TDP:
1. Claims ability to convert any organic waste "Capability: All Bio Mass" into diesel (including carbohydrate).
2. High efficiency "Efficiency level: 70% - 94%", typical "The plant’s high efficiency (~80%)" compared to TDP's 85%.
3. Sounds like TDP "Molecular depolymerization at low temperatures (270 – 350°C) and virtually pressure-free (< 0.1bar)" compared to TDP's first stage 200 - 300°C and 35 - 48 bar.
4. Economics: "Total Manufacturing costs per litre of diesel oil: approx. 50 c/l" at "The plant offered has a 500+ Ltr/hr [75 bbl/d] output capacity." Another reference, http://www.transgasindustry.ru/diz2.shtml puts the production cost @ 0.238 Euro/L or US$48/bbl at 1,000 L/h or 150 bbl/d. That's pretty close to the $60-65/bbl CWT's Carthage facility would be doing if they did not have to pay for the waste.
5. Even the graphic at the top of the page looks erily similar to CWT's webpage.

Key difference: This process requires a reletatively dry input: "Input Moisture Content Required: < 4 %" which puts TDP still in front as far as many wastes are concerned.

Nice to see waste to oil technologies taking off in the nick of time...

[Optimist]

Don't despair, Bluster. Waste to oil technologies are taking off just in the nick of time. Could you think of a better future fuel than waste? I can't. Notice that the Germans have developed a similar process, called KDV 500 - see http://www.globalfinest.com/tech/

Also note that no breaking of thermodynamic laws are required. "The total global energy use in 1995 was 383 EJ. For comparison, about 5.5 million EJ of sunlight strikes the upper atmosphere of the Earth each year, and about 250,000 EJ of that makes it to Earth's surface. So humans used the equivalent of less than 0.2% of the Sun's energy striking the Earth's surface in 1995." - http://www.cpast.org/Articles/fetch.adp?topicnum=13

I tend to think we will come up with a way to collect more than 0.2% of the sun's energy before oil, coal, natural gas and uranium runs out. And, of course, we will always have waste.

[frost667]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Googolplex', 'R')est easy animal lovers! It should run just as well on dead people too! :-D

[Googolplex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Optimist', 'D')on't despair, Bluster. Waste to oil technologies are taking off just in the nick of time. Could you think of a better future fuel than waste?

[MacG]

Well, everything seem to hinge on those 'catalysts'. If they are true, the thing might stick together. Otherwise it could be a fraud involving a chemical engineer. Otherwise, classic TD followed by Fisher-Tropsch is not bad, and if you stop earlier than F-T and rest with dimethylether you get even better efficiency.

[Optimist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t still consumes more energy from our available reserves to convert that waste then it produces as oil.

[scordry]

This sort of operation gives me the same question as that of ethanol plants:

I'll be really convinced of their positive energy production capabilities once someone uses the ethonal produced in the plant to actually plant, fertilize, harvest and transport corn to the ethanol plant. How much ethanol would they have as surplus that could be used for non-ethanol production? (Of course, the employees would need to have E85 cars.)

But any process that converts garbage (or sewage even) into energy will ultimately be a loser because they depend on the copius amounts of rubbish produced by a consumer-driven society. When this large storehouse of energy (i.e., the trash) is no longer produced at great rates, these kinds of energy producing operations will not be feesable.

We'll be talking about Peak Garbage.