[The_Virginian]

Sometimes the best way to get something done is to just "do it"

But rather than take my own advice, I have been "running away" (avoiding) a situation that would have me "face to face" with a family that lost it's teenage daughter in a Homicide bombing almost 5 years ago.

I did not attend the memorial service. I have witnessed such bombings before, and worked in a "chevrah kedisha" (jewish burial society) at a large funeral home, but never really enjoyed looking at dead humans...it always gets me down. (even eating, drinking and even sleeping at the funeral home- often with the body in the same room- because one of my jobs was to gaurd the body from rats, vermin, sicophants etc. ...untill burial.)

I was fairly close to the family, and still have their dughters cell phone # in my address/tel. book.

They live in a town of about 500 families now, and I lived there when it was only about 54, ten years ago. I find myself avioding the town entirely due to "bad memories" ( I have other reasons for avioding the town, beleive me).

Still, I feal the need to "face the greif" but I don't even know how to go about it. I am not particuarly good at comforting folks, and maybe I wanted to wait untill they needed no more comfort, maybe in order not to inadvertantly say something wrong... maybe because I'm a selfish puck who can't be bothered...

(big confession here)

I did cry about it, aproximately 4-5 monthes after it happned...at my cousins wedding...locked myself in a bathroom stall and sobbed. of course so no one would see me! This was brought on by the celebration I, and fealings of guilt that I was celebrating at all. (the memories were sparked by cousins asking me about the middle east, and how it was back there etc. etc.)

How would you "just do it"? How would you approach the situation 5 years later? Any advice appreciated.

[DomusAlbion]

You could write them a short letter and express yourself through that medium.

You've done it here in front of strangers.

But be sure to pass it through a spell checker first.

[Doly]

Think about it this way: any way of telling the family is better than what you've done so far, which is avoiding the issue entirely. Don't worry if the way you do it is the right way. Any way is going to be better than nothing.

[The_Virginian]

yes 5 years is a long time.

but this gal was like a little sister to me. My favorite memory was when she would do a ballet like split on a lampost, and then chide me for not being able to do 1/2 of what she could.

Her mother trusted me to watch over her. I was not in Israel the day she was murdered, allong with 18 others at a "trampiada" ( a hitchiker station, called Givat Safarte' "french hill" one that has had at least 4 deadly attacks AFAIK maybe more) on her way back to the settlement of Eli.

I got back to Israel a week later I stood there to get a "tramp" (hitch) to Eli, and you could still see the blood on the brick like pavement..all dried and brownish/magenta from the summer heat. The donkeys did not even bother to clean it right. Those blood stains lasted the whole summer I was there...in an ever decreasing fashon from wear and tear.

I know I've got to do it, and I don't think after 5 years a letter is appropriate. while I hold back tears now, i must go soon, just show up I suppose.... Shiesse thats going to be hard...

I don't want to make them cry... I don't want to either...WTfugg I want to comfort, but this is mission Imposible.
As we say "Baruch Dayan HaEMETH" Blessed be the true Judge.


This Guilt of not being there for her is a rotten banana, one that still smells bad. Worse yet is my A) Cowardace B) Survival Mechanisim C) Callousness (depending on how you look at it).

Plan A) Knock on door, let them bring it up, like I'm sure they will...then agin if they don't I must..somehow...and tact is not my forte'

Plan B) Do nothing, forget about it, drink more (yah sure, If 5 years don't do it...)

Plan C) Have a friend with me to visist, one that has been there in the past 5 years...

Plan D) Hang around the Town untill they run into me. (a waste of time, and also "cold" )

Looks like Plan "A" is the "answer."

I'l keep y'all posted on how it went.

Thank you (all) for your support.

[I_Like_Plants]

Try doing a little crying for one of the many, many families crushed under a US provided Israeli bulldozer. Or olive groves hundreds of years old plowed under, bombed, or killed with Agent Orange. Villages lived in for thousands of years now divided by a prison type wall. And so on. Get to the root of it.

[The_Virginian]

Plant lover,

Unless you personaly experianced such things, I suggest you live in the ME a bit before preaching. Otherwise it very much mirrors troll like behaviour.

For example, King Hussian of Jordan (a Muslim and Hashimite bedou) used USA and Brit supplied tanks with turrets in reverse to cream/crumble whole appartment blocks, instead of wasting precious ammo, he wasted the civilians. there has not been an "intifadah" in Jordan since...

Maybe we should become more Muslim in our dealings and less Western?

A muslim (or a proud jew) would not build such a wall, for there would be no need for ghetto walls almost 40 years after a "victory".

On a side note, those armoured catapillers are going to knock down Jewish houses now, plenty of ugliness to go around. No need to seed yours.

My original posts were not about politics/world order/zionist-palestinian claptrap or your views on the world.

My post is about one young lady. I am aware of the fugged up situation, if you don't have positive things to contribute please take your additude somewhere else.

[Jam1eSc0tland]

The_Virginian, i suggest you opt for plan B....Do nothing. Best not to impose yourself on anyone unless truly necessary. I agree with your suggested reason that you were being selfish and not being bothered. Times like what this family have gone through, it should have been your responsibility as a friend to put their feelings ahead of your own. What you propose to do now smells like you trying to ease your guilt. I suggest you live with it.

[The_Virginian]

James your post is exactly what I worry about.

Either way, I don't want to be TOO MUCH of a drama queen, and I will try to make this my last post on the subject..hopefully.

Israel is a small country, I'm sure I will bump into these folks again, even if I decide not to visit.

Then again that cruddy additude does nothing for me long term.

Maybe just a visit, and try to AVOID the subject..and if/when it pops up...then deal with it (by telling them I was a selfish puck and just could not deal with it! I'll bet that is something they could understand.)

[CarlinsDarlin]

Virginian,
The one useful piece of information I got doing undergrad studies in Psychology was when I learned about coping styles. They explain how people cope with unpleasant situations or circumstances. One coping style for example, is called the Over Zealous Approacher. We all know people like this - someone who is upset about something, and won't quit banging it on the head until it's resolved. This style can have the benefit of not letting problems fester, but at the same time, the approach can have unintended negative consequences, like turning people off.

You, on the other hand, have the same coping style that I (and my father) have - it's called Active Avoidance.

Active Avoidance, i.e., actively avoiding dealing with unpleasantness, gives you the benefit of not having to deal with unpleasant situations right away, but there are also serious drawbacks to this coping style. Generally, avoiding a situation to avoid the problem will, in time, make the problem bigger, as you've found out.

I've done the same thing, in other circumstances, many times. Each time, the longer I avoided dealing with the situation, the bigger the problem became, and the more difficult it became to make myself do something to rectify the wrong. Here's an example. My father and I had a falling out when I was about 20 years old. I won't go into the details, as they aren't relevant in this case, but suffice it to say, since he and I are both Active Avoiders, neither of us would approach the problem to try to work it out. This resulted in 5 years of absolutely NO contact between us, and the 5 after that being very strained. Thankfully we've since worked out the problem, but we lost 10 years of what is now, for me, one of the most important relationships I have - THE most important, besides my husband.

Letting your feelings and worry fester will not make it better, for you or for the family of your good friend. Each person has his or her own way of dealing with grief. I think you'd be surprised at how understanding your friend's parents will be if you contact them. Yes, they may cry again, at reliving old memories, and so will you, most likely. But that's okay. I think they would rather know that you do care, and did care, but were just unable to deal with the pain at that moment.

You won't truly be able to go on with the future until you face the past. And dealing with it now will have the added benefit that you may well re-establish ties with people you obviously care about. Go for a visit. Make a phone call. However you decide to do it - do it. It will be difficult, but not as difficult as knowing, for the rest of your life, that you left those people thinking you didn't care.

I wish you luck.
Kathy

[The_Virginian]

Kathy,

I think we do share that trait. I also got a BS degree in psychology (was in the middle of it when this happened), but sometimes knowing what you have to do does not make the task easier.

I thank you all for your suppot.

[Lukethedrifter]

· Denial
· Anger
· Bargaining
· Depression
· Acceptance

Do people experience these when they discover peak oil? Do they grieve the loss of the life they thought they once would have?

Do you think that you might be in the middle of one of these stages, now? Have you come full circle to acceptance?

I think I'm stuck in the bargaining stage. I don't know why, I just feel like the full depression of what will happen hasn't hit me yet.

[o2ny]

I'd like to suggest that nobody 'really' knows exactly what's going to happen with peak oil so you may be feeling depressed based on your own assumptions of what you think is going to happen. It's going to be a rocky road but we may not see the doomer vision of total societal collapse for 10, 20, 30 years if ever. Chances are it won't play out the way anybody expects it to- it almost never does.

Pay attention to the thoughts that are causing you to be depressed and see if it's based on any assumptions or guesses about the future you're making.

Sorry to edit- this is *if* you do get to the depression stage.

[rogerhb]

I went through those stages, whether it's called grief or "recognition of an inevitable and permenant change in situation".

I would say it took about 6 months to get to the acceptance phase.

But even once into the acceptance phase went though a long "vulnerability" stage before we put our plan into action.

[Ayoob]

I know it's not nice to fly in the face of generally accepted truth, but I think the Anger item is not as it appears. IMO, Anger is Fear quickly quashed by the more acceptable emotion of Anger. I'd really put the list at six items, and put Fear before Anger.

It's funny, though. I've read something lately about the concept of Stress, such as work-related stress. I can't remember where I got this and I don't have time to source these comments today so load up on your salt. Stress is indistinguishable from fear on a physiological level. The same brain centers light up, the same chemicals are released, the same physiological effects are displayed in the human body.

I bet that's true. It's not acceptable to call it what it is, though, so we fudge and call it stress.

A wise man once told me that if I watch myself very carefully, when I think I'm angry, there's a little tiny gap after the trigger and before the anger, and the emotion in that moment is fear. If I really wanted to, I could cut the anger off and simply experience the fear and be done with it at that level. I don't think it's realistic to say that anger is something that can simply be wished away or denied... it's part of us in an evolutionary biological perspective. Maybe it's not good to just be paralyzed with fear, but galvanized into immediate action by anger.

Dealing with PO by using anger, though, just doesn't seem like the right tool. It's using a crescent wrench to pound in a nail. Better to use a hammer.

PO has struck fear into my heart. The anger didn't follow... who to be angry at? For what? Whose fault is it? Nobody and everybody at the same time? Little decisions made by millions of people over the course of centuries? I think they were just doing what was either going to make them money or provide a nice quality of life for a lot of people. Maybe a little short-sighted, but probably not evil in its intent.

Anyway. Here we are. I am not paralyzed by fear or overcome with anger at this situation we find ourselves in. I've definitely grieved over the loss of the life I once thought I would have, but I'm taking action on a daily basis to reengineer my life around what I think will be the single most important shortage in the history of mankind. This event will drive governmental policy, personal motivations, wars, plagues, starvation and suffering, all of the above. Worldwide, at home, and for every person I've ever worked with and grew up with.

It's very sad.

I definitely spent some time depressed. I guess I dug myself out of that now, and I'm into acceptance mode most of the time, but I still bounce around in the stages. I bargain, I get down a little bit and then rally myself to the Cause again, I accept. Denial isn't really in the picture for me much, I'd rather know the worst of what will come and prepare a bit for it as well as the more mundane things that will be a PITA.

Every once in a while I'm overcome with a vision of a huge mass of people with nothing to do because their training and experience is useless without a computer in front of them. Then, I see them in need, and moving as a mass they encounter and consume, encounter and consume, encounter and consume, until they have taken and used and eaten and shit upon whatever they could find until they finally see that there are no more worlds to conquer, and then they begin to fight. Each other. Because they must, or they will die. Of course this will not happen everywhere at once, but inevitably it will be concentrated in the areas in which the resources lie. Take Africa as an example. Where there is oil, there is violence. Where there are diamonds, there is violence. Where there is that chemical that is needed to make cellphones, there is violence.

Here, we have forests and lakes and coal and tar sands and farmland. Maybe those will be the sites of future violence in our times.

After we annex or NAFTA Canada to death and there's no more room to plant... whatever it is that we're going to plant, then the prices of farmland begin to skyrocket, and the taxes on that land go up, and the poor can't afford the food at the new, higher prices... they're going to get some food somehow, or die trying one way or the other.

Hey, Green Acres is on! Pass the cheese doodles!

[Heineken]

I must still be in the anger stage, because I WANT collapse and dieoff. I think that the human species has proved itself unworthy of this planet. Mother Nature can do better, and probably will, although recovery from us will take millions of years.

[LadyRuby]

I can't say I've been through every step. I think I went through shock, depression, and I think I'm kind of at the acceptance stage now.

I was shocked and depressed that it became apparent to me that the dreams I had weren't going to happen. Now that I've gotten used to that idea, I'm sort of okay with it and recognize that there are other worthy dreams. But I'm less doomerish than many and don't think society will become extinct, I think we're in for a tough transition.

[SeasonOfPain]

I alternate between acceptance and depression, myself, as I'm firmly in the doomer camp.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') must still be in the anger stage, because I WANT collapse and dieoff. I think that the human species has proved itself unworthy of this planet. Mother Nature can do better, and probably will, although recovery from us will take millions of years.

[rogerhb]

Yes, if the world is without humans, it won't be the end of the world, it will just be "different".

[savethehumans]

Yep. Accepting AND depressed, that's me!

[knoppix2004]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lukethedrifter', 'Â')· Denial
· Anger
· Bargaining
· Depression
· Acceptance

Do people experience these when they discover peak oil? Do they grieve the loss of the life they thought they once would have?