[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ack is a self-important jerk. And repulsive. He thinks its funny. I think he should be hounded off the site. Community is about throwing some people out. Not by banning them. Not by censorship (please read that Aaron, the world is not black and white, I'm not proposing censorship, never have, never will).

[trespam]

Aaron: I speak from my convictions. You believe our species is doomed. I think, in the long term, we are all doomed. I pointed out that 6 billion people will die in the next 100 years. It will be more. And that there is no species on earth that has lasted forever. Are you just realizing that? Can you not accept that. Nothing, and I mean nothing, lasts forever.

So this is the most basic truism. The Buddha spoke about it thousand of years ago. What I'm asking? Are you just stumbling on that fact? Or has it got you so depressed that it drives you to call humans the lowest common denominator? What is this lowest common demoninator argument, other than an empty phrase?

Jenab is now posting about blacks and how inferior they are. Am I saying we should pull his account? No. But should we ignore him? I hear that argument. What a great argument. When you hear an opinion you don't like, just ignore it. They'll go away. No, often they don't go away.

What I find ironic is that the moderators on this board expend so much energy to argue vehemently against a fool like JD but spend no time at all arguing with a fool like Jack or Jenab. You are hypocrites. I have the right to say it, and will do so. You're negativism and beliefs color your ability to act objectively.

And the racist and genocidal freaks like jack will put an upper limit on what this board is about. It's not about peak oil. There are other sites coming up now and others that will come up later as the issue becomes more important. And that's fine. I'm just saying this site will be the doomers peak oil site for racists and xenephobs. I used to send people to this board. But even seeing Jenab posting this morning, I would not do so. There are just better places.

Just my opinions. Now perhaps you'd better use some of that energy to deal with the xenephobs and genocides. And perhaps you have. I'm just not sure.

Please be clear. I've nothing against your great efforts to provide this forum. Or your very important work at running this site. But I find it funny that you guys spend so much energy focusing on proving the doomer theory, but none at all dealing with xenophobs and genocides. Or am I wrong?

[Aaron]

Yes you are wrong.

Are you expecting real-time moderation?

Perhaps we should direct every post to your email address so you can approve submissions your majesty?

I didn't say any of that crap you just posted for the record.

I said...<pant> many times, that scarcity causes conflict.

Jenab is being monitored I assure you. (Since before you were aware he was back actually)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here are just better places.

[Permanently_Baffled]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')It's because of all you Landers.

Your insane belief in the continued growth of human systems has brought us to this juncture, and threatens to plunge us into resource wars going forward.

The market will solve right?

[bart]

Aaron...


I can tell that you are upset and pessimistic, but I can't figure out your intellectual position. The dichotomy of Doomers vs Landers, the subject of so much discussion on this board, seems to be a non-issue elsewhere.

From what I can tell, the points of view about PO and the future are:

1. Unaware.

2. Slightly aware, uneasy about the rising cost of fuels, echoing whatever explanation is currently in the news.

3. Energy Independence. Belief that dependence on foreign fuels puts the US at risk, therefore we should do everything possible to make the US self-sufficient in energy: conservation, Priuses, corn ethanol, etc. This group includes Reagan Republicans, Thomas Friedman and the Geo-greens (some neo-conservatives), many Democrats including Clinton. I suspect that many in the military/intelligence community are in this camp.

4. Cornucopian economists. Some libertarians, some financial people, many economists. A small but vocal group... getting smaller every day.

5. Techno-fixers. Believe that everything will be all right if we just .... ( buy hydrogen cars, invite in Amory Lovins as a consultant, put PV panels on our roofs, make fusion practical, etc.) The Viridian Greens over at WorldChanging seemed to start out in this camp, but are gradually becoming more realistic.

6. End of cheap energy. Belief that human society will change dramatically because of Peak Oil and related shortages. Skepticism about the efficacy of techno-fixes. In this camp are just about everybody on the peakoil.com board, as well as the other Peak Oil websites. Trespam, Aaron, Barbara, Jack, Specop, me... we're all here. There's a consensus that over-population, over-consumption and political issues have to be addressed, as well as new technologies developed. There are differences of opinion about which ones to emphasize, but nowhere else have I seen the level of acrimony as on this board.

Where is the Doomer vs Lander conflict? I just don't see it.

To me, Doomerism is not an intellectual position. It's more an emotional impulse towards despair and hysteria. An emotional/intellectual black hole that saps our energy. Among us technical types it takes the form of emotional numbness and crankish theories.

At its worst, it's a form of mental illness, like clinical Depression. As someone who experienced depression for several years, I can tell you -- it's no fun at all. There's no magic answer as to how to climb out of the hole. Small steps towards some productive goal are very important.

When one feels this way, it's a bad idea to try to think about long-term or global issues. The black mood distorts one's thinking, and one tends to go round and round (sound familiar?).

That you (Aaron) are publicizing PO through this board, and are in contact with Rep. Bartlett, makes me wonder about your Doomer credentials. You are acting, taking reasonable steps. By your actions, you are expressing a hope in a human future.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bart', 'W')here is the Doomer vs Lander conflict? I just don't see it.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', 'M')ontequest says he must hang with Jack because the times argue it. I disagree. I find views of people like Jack repugnant.

6. I think this board is populate, in some ways, but what I refer to as third tier casandras, wannabees, people would like to broadly-quoted authors, etc. Jack has "writings". Savinar and Montequest have "books." All of their writings are either (a) alarmist, (b) conspiracy ridden; and (c) self-important.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', 'W')e've got Montequest who believes there is a world financial conspiracy. I always wonder whether they are supposed to be Jewish. Funny, Stiglitz, the economist who has railed against the world financial community, who has been in the midst of them, says cleary THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY. Stiglitz is an honorable person. A nobel prize winner. I believe him. Not Montequests conspiracy theories. I agree with some of Montequests posts. But he's also obsessed with die off.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', 'L')udi:

I said in a previous post that I think Montequest and I have opinions that are similar in many respects. But I believe it is true that Montequest believes there is a conspiracy of international financial folks, a secret society, that is planning to control the world. It's all in his book. It's all in there. A conspiracy to control the world. A thread running through all the wars and events we've seen in the last century. And here's a concern I have, perhaps unwarranted, but still a concern all the same. Almost all of these conspiracy theories of the financial type put Jews in the drivers seat. The old Jews are manipulating the world financial system. It's been used against them for a long time. I could very well be wrong on that point, but still, I think Montequest does believe in the conspiracy. And these conspiracy theorists are a frightening lot. Ruppert is a good example. Montequest also has a tendency to write in the style of Ruppert. Good stuff, but on-and-on-and-on-and-on. Same thing. The Larouch Murdoch types do that. On and on and on. Now I realize that some will say I'm doing the same thing. But I'll take a break for another six months. On average, my output will be much less.

If I'm wrong about Montequest and his conspiracy theories, I will apologize. And I am not saying he's anti-semitic. I'm saying the financial conspiracy theories of the sort he seems to believe attract the anti-semites like flies to--well, you know what.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', ' ') But I find it funny that you guys spend so much energy focusing on proving the doomer theory, but none at all dealing with xenophobs and genocides. Or am I wrong?

[bart]

Oh good, JD is forcing me to take a stand:$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'W')hat's your position on overshoot and die-off, Bart? Will 4 or 5 billion people have to die as a result of peak oil?

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('trespam', 'J')ack is a self-important jerk. And repulsive. He thinks its funny. I think he should be hounded off the site. Community is about throwing some people out. Not by banning them. Not by censorship (please read that Aaron, the world is not black and white, I'm not proposing censorship, never have, never will). When I come across people like Jack, I just want others to have the information and I'll always make it clear that I think he's repulsive. It's my right.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bart', 'W')here is the Doomer vs Lander conflict? I just don't see it.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', ' ')
you add to my reputation. . . your posts amuse me. So I suppose I should thank you.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', ' ')
you add to my reputation. . . your posts amuse me. So I suppose I should thank you.

[EnviroEngr]

OK.

We have Trespam, hotsacks and PMS (at least) looking for the key to the crypt; it's rare - I have time to do this, so here it is: what I should have taken the time in the first place to write understandably.

One of the reasons I don't write more than I do is because when I do, I'm processing raw thoughts and ineffable impressions into words on several levels simultaneously and going through a bigillion political correctness filters to make sure diplomacy is preserved. This is very energy and time intensive. What you guys are reading and recoiling from is extremely rough draft brainstorming in written form - ideas spread on words by loose association at best. I shouldn't even put it up. I should pop up a NotePad window, put it all there, do the obligatory 4 or 5 editorial pass-throughs before saving it, sleep on it and then put it up here. I'm dangerously impulsive to skip such a critical step.

But, I have the vast good fortune to still have a full-time engineering job which is (to the detriment of my posts here) in its busiest period in five years. The regulatory compliance rigors for EPA, DOT, OSHA, DHS and Commerce are just brain-cooking. By the time I get around to putting something up here, it's coming off the shittiest end of the stick. I have no time to write properly and a few of us here are quite candid, excited even, about pointing it out - very much like my 5 year son would when I'd have food in my beard. The similarity is eerie, now that I think about it.

So, here we go:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') pray for the flexibility of my own useable beliefs that once labeled doesn't mean always labeled. Could be that I am unrecoverable insofar as this is concerned. I shall have to put on the pyre my very own obsolescence should this be true. So foul and fair a day I have not seen.

[Barbara]

How comes I agree with everybody in this "flame war"?

Either is:
- Because my english is so poor I don't understand anything
- Because I'm just a stupid woman and don't know what I think myself
- Because this flame war is involving the best thinkers of po.com, people I've come to highly esteem in the last year (say, Aaron, trespam, EE, Monte), and it seems to me they're arguing over the sex of angels, as we used to say.

We are peakoilers so we are doomers by definition. Realist doomers, since our "doom prophecies" are based on hard facts and undisputed scientific evidence. Any of us, then, take his/her doomerism in his/her own way: being a socialist european, as an example, my doomerism is quite different from a survivalist gun toting nut.
Until we were an elite of "crazy" people, we hold together. Now our forecasting are coming true (and I'm not speaking of NO) and we split and fight for subtle differences.
I've seen this happen many times, in the so-called "movements". Sadly, this is a destiny for smart people with no power.

En passant, I think racist posters must be banned with no further notice. This is also an Indymedia policy, and Indymedia is not famous for being heavily censored.

[EnviroEngr]

Thanks Barbara. Yet another valid and valuable point of view to consider as grist for the mill.

It's getting the pith out of the plurality that yields the greatest benefits. All these different world views and no seeming unity; but, all is interconnected and separation is an illusion. We all present with 'true' pieces of information. But like the blind men around the elephant, we do not see the big picture. The only way we can is to set aside agreeing or disagreeing and simply listen, try to understand and allow the mind to wander and contemplate. In short, we need to get out of the habit of "noisy mind". We need to quit actively chasing away revelations like they're vermin by chattering all the time - how we so hate silence!

Like Death says at the end of Meaning of Life: "Quiet. Shut Up! You Americans talk and talk and say 'Let me tell ya something' and 'I just wanna say this'. Well you're dead now, so shut up!"

Until we give up the nervous habit of using symbols, sounds and external projections to drown out our fears, pains and lapses, we will never be still enough for the 'other' information to get noticed, let alone integrated.

[JudoCow09]

You can tell if a kid or student is on this website. You guys have way too much time on your hands to make such lengthy posts all commonly backed by facts, although I have to say sometimes it does appear to me certain facts don't exactly apply to our situation. Still, I can't begin to understand when you guys have fun(other than Jack, who does bring some needed humor to this board ). It seems to me you're always preparing, posting, and researching.

[bart]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Barbara', 'W')e are peakoilers so we are doomers by definition. Realist doomers, since our "doom prophecies" are based on hard facts and undisputed scientific evidence. Any of us, then, take his/her doomerism in his/her own way: being a socialist european, as an example, my doomerism is quite different from a survivalist gun toting nut.