[arocoun]

Maybe it's just me, but is anyone else utterly disgusted everytime somebody shows that they value material posessions over life? For example, hearing on the news about somebody killing someone else for a little money or a jacket or drugs or something. Or, on the other side of things, hearing people talk about how they'd gladly shoot anyone who steals from them, or tresspasses on their property. And the gun-nuts on these forums particularly like talking about how quickly they'd shoot thieves after the post oil apocolypse, or whatever.

And after Katrina, and New Orleans being destroyed, I'm seeing more and more just how much material posessions are valued over life. Perhaps it's just because I don't quite value luxuries as much as others, but I'm not really disturbed about people looting televisions, clothes, jewelry, etc. from a ruined city. And, people protecting their families and food supplies with lethal force is understandable. But when I hear about looters shooting at and hurting people over petty luxuries, or see pictures of signs saying "ALL LOOTERS WILL BE SHOT," or hear people saying that looters should be killed FOR LOOTING (as opposed to killing them for hurting others), I am disgusted.

How many people here find material posessions being valued over life to be disgusting?

[I_Like_Plants]

Post-Enlightenment, a person's life has generally been considered to be their property. I'll gladly shoot someone who tries to deprive me of that posession, my life. And I might gut-shoot 'em just to watch 'em squirm.

[Specop_007]

Explain to Spec, if we can delve deeper into this, what gives you the right to take whats mine?
Does Spec value possessions over life? Depends on the what we're talking about. If Spec catches someone stealing, say, a screwdriver from his garage I really dont see Spec killing this man. The theif may end up catchin the ass whippin of a lifetime, but certainly not a bullet.

But, when you start stealing big ticket items, things change. You may very well catch a bullet if you try to steal Specs car and he catches you.
Why? Spec hates thieves. You have NO RIGHT to take what is Specs, be it his TV, his car or screwdriver.

And if you start messing with items essential to Specs, or his familys, survival then at that point theres no question. You will be killed, your body will be found inside the house and you will have a weapon in your hand and you were attacking Spec.

[Barbara]

When US authorities said the first thing to do was shooting at looters, people here in the EU couldn't believe their ears.
When a country thinks first of saving properties than feeding starving children or rescueing lost elders, then that country has no hope.

[jato]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd if you start messing with items essential to Specs, or his familys, survival then at that point theres no question.

[MD]

The issue isn't so much in material possessions, but in behavior required to maintain polite society. The "looters" looking for food and water, did they inventory their "purchases" for later payment? I would have.

It is so important to maintain good behavior and integrity. Very difficult circumstances make it even more important, not less!

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Barbara', 'W')hen US authorities said the first thing to do was shooting at looters, people here in the EU couldn't believe their ears.
When a country thinks first of saving properties than feeding starving children or rescueing lost elders, then that country has no hope.

[Bedevere]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'E')xplain to Spec, if we can delve deeper into this, what gives you the right to take whats mine?
Does Spec value possessions over life? Depends on the what we're talking about.

[Ercole]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Barbara', 'W')hen a country thinks first of saving properties than feeding starving children or rescueing lost elders, then that country has no hope.

[Onyered]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('arocoun', 'M')aybe it's just me, but is anyone else utterly disgusted everytime somebody shows that they value material posessions over life?

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Onyered', '
')

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('arocoun', '
')And after Katrina, and New Orleans being destroyed, I'm seeing more and more just how much material posessions are valued over life. Perhaps it's just because I don't quite value luxuries as much as others, but I'm not really disturbed about people looting televisions, clothes, jewelry, etc. from a ruined city. And, people protecting their families and food supplies with lethal force is understandable. But when I hear about looters shooting at and hurting people over petty luxuries, or see pictures of signs saying "ALL LOOTERS WILL BE SHOT," or hear people saying that looters should be killed FOR LOOTING (as opposed to killing them for hurting others), I am disgusted.

How many people here find material posessions being valued over life to be disgusting?

[arocoun]

Just a few quick remarks.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you really probe him, eventually he'll say that the jewelry, TVs, etc. don't really belong to the rich people. He might say that we should share everything equally. Or that rich people are to blame for all of the world's ills.

To him, the looters are equalizing an imbalance.

To Spec, Onyered, and I, the looters (not the food-stealers, but the looters) are thevies. Robin Hood is not a hero of ours.

[SurvivalAcres]

There is a difference between looting and scavenging for survival.

Unfortunately, I imagine it was very hard to tell the difference.

Looters, who seek to profit themselves (or others) have forsaken their rights. Survivors on the other hand, who are seeking to stay alive, have not forsaken anything, nor broken any laws.

The difference here is, who is the victim and who has retained or lost rights?

People scavenging perishable and non-perishable goods to survive the disaster have by necessity been forced to do so. Therefore, they are not law breakers. The law can be judged for it's moral capacity and clearly in this case, it is immoral to call them law breakers.

Looters, on the other hand, are those who are seeking personal profit from the situation and are creating an important distinction here - additional victims. Their actions are criminal and they by their actions, have forsaken their rights to protection by the law. The owners of the property - and any insurance comapanies - and indirectly, the people at large, are the victims of looters. We all pay for their actions.

That is not the case at all for people scavenging to stay alive. The only victims in this case are the scavengers themselves. No additional victims are created by their actions of scavenging (although hoarding could be considered another matter entirely).

Shooting looters, if they can be identified as such, is necessary at times, and frankly, I support this. Contributing to lawlessness and depredation in a disaster zone should not be tolerated. At this extreme level of human behavior, extreme force is all too often needed. The restoration of order is essential for all concerned.

[k_semler]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'P')ost-Enlightenment, a person's life has generally been considered to be their property. I'll gladly shoot someone who tries to deprive me of that posession, my life. And I might gut-shoot 'em just to watch 'em squirm.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('k_semler', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'P')ost-Enlightenment, a person's life has generally been considered to be their property. I'll gladly shoot someone who tries to deprive me of that posession, my life. And I might gut-shoot 'em just to watch 'em squirm.

[k_semler]

A rapist, sure. I'd even watch the disemboweling. A thief I say just shoot. It ie easier that way, and far more humane too.

[dissimulo]

Money is compensation for the amount of your life you give up in service to another person. Posessions are obtained with money. Therefore, posessions represent your expended life.

I treasure my life and give up the minimum amount that I need to in order to secure the things I need or want. When someone steals from me, they are stealing moments of my life. I must then expend more of my life in order to replace what was taken.

Stealing is murder by fractions.

[Onyered]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('arocoun', '
')
I'm not that much of a communist, actually.

[Ercole]

I don't share your view of what could happen after a catastrophy - I was not talking about the way the "normal" life goes, my rat example took place after a fire that burned trees, bugs, everything, Katrina or Peak oil or war are such stress situation and they may change the rules till "normal" life comes back. Yes "many animals (particularly those that have few children, and that care the most and longest for their children) will tend to help thier group/family/children, even at the cost of their own comfort and survival chances", but the strangers will no more be accepted if it's unbearable for the "family group"survival to help others, and even chased away or killed. Surely, when shit happens, I will try to save my family, but the others... If it's starvation time, the stranger who comes to steal potatoes or beans from my garden will be shot dead. Those of the group who will not help taking care of the garden or the chicken will be excluded too. If they don't give a shit about my life, I will do the same with them.

[Barbara]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')arbara wrote:
When US authorities said the first thing to do was shooting at looters, people here in the EU couldn't believe their ears.
When a country thinks first of saving properties than feeding starving children or rescueing lost elders, then that country has no hope.