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Evolution

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Evolution

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 02:48:26

Here's the thesis: the historical record of life shows that evolution has occurred, but it has been in an irregular manner which argues against a gradualist theory of species development. The fossil record suggests that species can disappear and appear in a flash, geohistorically speaking. But current mainstream scientific opinion is in support of an idea of gradualism which is not sustainable in its denial of these facts. Wholescale changes are a reality in Nature and Science alike.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby Specop_007 » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 02:56:26

Not only that, but Specop thinks its a really funny movie.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 03:03:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'N')ot only that, but Specop IS a really funny movie.
the sequels usually suck. This is supposed to be about evolution goddammit. Get your Specop Ass outa here or tell us your ideas about Evolution! Yeah or Nay? What's up with these fossils?
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby evilmonkeyspanker » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 03:16:23

God Created Man

Man Created "Big Brother" & "Survivor"

Both Man & God are fuc*&^ stupid
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby 0mar » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 03:17:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'N')ot only that, but Specop IS a really funny movie.
the sequels usually suck. This is supposed to be about evolution goddammit. Get your Specop Ass outa here or tell us your ideas about Evolution! Yeah or Nay? What's up with these fossils?


Biochemistry, behavior and reproductive barriers don't fossilize. What we have are educated guesses. It could be that what looks like one species may infact be two seperate species back when the creatures were alive.

Also, the fossil records probably is made of like .0001% of all species that ever lived. It is very incomplete.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 03:27:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', '
')Also, the fossil records probably is made of like .0001% of all species that ever lived. It is very incomplete.
Well I've seen those paintings of dinosaurs. So complete and full of Mesozoic Lifeforms! Plenty of paleo life has been dug up. The point is what to make of it.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby Specop_007 » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 03:29:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'N')ot only that, but Specop IS a really funny movie.
the sequels usually suck. This is supposed to be about evolution goddammit. Get your Specop Ass outa here or tell us your ideas about Evolution! Yeah or Nay? What's up with these fossils?


Ok, Specop will play.

Evolution by definition would be spordaic and jerky. An organism must evolve when faced with something outside its "normal operating parameters". For example, if our evage tempature on Earth decreased by 5 degrees, you probably wouldnt see any change in humans, ever. That small change is well within our norm. But change it by 25 degrees? You'd suddenly see a shift as people changed, maybe an increase in body hair.
Evolution isnt a requirement, but only an option to overcome a sudden change which an organism is suddenly not used to.
Evolution is a repsonse to a certain condition. Without that condition having existed in the first place, no evolution. Therefore evolution would be sporadic and unpredictable.

This is what Specop thinks.
As it is penned, so it shall be.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 03:36:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')
Ok, Specop will play.

therefore evolution would be sporadic and unpredictable.

This is what Specop thinks.
As it is penned, so it shall be.
sporadic and unpredictable is as life is, that is my point. People who think that things happen gradually are suprised sometimes.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby Specop_007 » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 03:41:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')
Ok, Specop will play.

therefore evolution would be sporadic and unpredictable.

This is what Specop thinks.
As it is penned, so it shall be.
sporadic and unpredictable is as life is, that is my point. People who think that things happen gradually are suprised sometimes.


You said to throw out Specops idea.
Specop gave his opinion. He wasnt necesarily trying to debate it with you, but simply giving his opinion on the subject.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 03:46:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')You said to throw out Specops idea.
Specop gave his opinion. He wasnt necesarily trying to debate it with you, but simply giving his opinion on the subject.
What idea was that, that people will grow more hair? :lol:
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby evilmonkeyspanker » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 03:54:21

Take a look at the human race if you wish.

Changes to humans based on geography and enviroment

Those born closer to to the equator and in areas where sunlight is more abundent developed darker skin

The further north you go the lighter skin gets.

Thats evolution slow and gradule.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 04:26:39

Well, what you are referring to here is called “punctuated equilibrium.” Punctuated equilibrium is more an observation of catastrophic events and a steady state, rather than a theory of evolution. When we study the fossils of organisms found in subsequent geological formations we see long intervals in which nothing changed followed by short, radical transitions, in which species became extinct and were replaced by entirely new forms.

In fact, the origins of this theory are rooted in Darwin’s writings in The Origin of Species:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')The periods during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured in years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they retain the same form."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')But I must here remark that I do not suppose that the process ever goes on so regularly as is represented in the diagram, though in itself made somewhat irregular, nor that it goes on continuously; it is far more probable that each form remains for long periods unaltered, and then again undergoes modification.”

Darwin also believed that:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')Although isolation is of great importance in the production of new species, on the whole I am inclined to believe that largeness of area is still more important, especially for the production of species which shall prove capable of enduring for a long period, and of spreading widely."


Punctuated equilibrium focuses on isolation as a critical element of speciation. This is the only place I know that Darwin’s theory and this one conflict. I like to think of these differences as “tipping points” or thresholds; although gradualism is more often observed than punctuated equilibrium.

It’s kind of like a rolling ball that hits a bump and is slowed or diverted on a new path. Explaining the steady state fossil record to satisfaction is most definitely a challenge.

All you need to know about Punctuated Equilibrium
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby DefiledEngine » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 04:39:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Here's the thesis: the historical record of life shows that evolution has occurred, but it has been in an irregular manner which argues against a gradualist theory of species development. The fossil record suggests that species can disappear and appear in a flash, geohistorically speaking. But current mainstream scientific opinion is in support of an idea of gradualism which is not sustainable in its denial of these facts. Wholescale changes are a reality in Nature and Science alike.


Sorry, but gradual evolution has been QUITE observed. From the slow shortening of the horns of certain mountain goats, to development of sickle-cell anemia in humans are all gradual quick changes (and let's not forget Darwin's finches). There have been many transitional fossils found, with ample times between species according to sedimentary dating. What more do you want?

As far as I know, not even people like Lynn Margulis argue that gradual evolution isn't a part of overall evolution.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 04:59:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ') When we study the fossils of organisms found in subsequent geological formations we see long intervals in which nothing changed followed by short, radical transitions, in which species became extinct and were replaced by entirely new forms.
Thanks for the good link. Your quote here is what I've been saying too. And this argues against gradualism, my point. Constant selection of constant mutation rates should yield constant morphogenesis and a smooth continuous fossil record.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 05:01:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ') When we study the fossils of organisms found in subsequent geological formations we see long intervals in which nothing changed followed by short, radical transitions, in which species became extinct and were replaced by entirely new forms.
Thanks for the good link. Your quote here is what I've been saying too. And this argues against gradualism, my point. Constant selection of constant mutation rates should yield constant morphogenesis and a smooth continuous fossil record.


Not according to Darwin who I quoted.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 05:15:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ') When we study the fossils of organisms found in subsequent geological formations we see long intervals in which nothing changed followed by short, radical transitions, in which species became extinct and were replaced by entirely new forms.



Not according to Darwin who I quoted.
Do we have to start parsing sentences? 'long intervals in which nothing happened', 'short, radical transitions'. This is not gradualism.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby 0mar » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 06:02:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ') When we study the fossils of organisms found in subsequent geological formations we see long intervals in which nothing changed followed by short, radical transitions, in which species became extinct and were replaced by entirely new forms.



Not according to Darwin who I quoted.
Do we have to start parsing sentences? 'long intervals in which nothing happened', 'short, radical transitions'. This is not gradualism.


It may only be an illusion that nothing happened. Behavior doesn't fossilize. Two rabbits at 10 million year intervals may well be two distinct species as defined today, but share remarkably similar physiology. The differences would be behavioral, which doesn't fossilize.
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 07:04:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ') When we study the fossils of organisms found in subsequent geological formations we see long intervals in which nothing changed followed by short, radical transitions, in which species became extinct and were replaced by entirely new forms.



Not according to Darwin who I quoted.
Do we have to start parsing sentences? 'long intervals in which nothing happened', 'short, radical transitions'. This is not gradualism.


As Darwin explained...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')The periods during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured in years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they retain the same form."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')But I must here remark that I do not suppose that the process ever goes on so regularly as is represented in the diagram, though in itself made somewhat irregular, nor that it goes on continuously; it is far more probable that each form remains for long periods unaltered, and then again undergoes modification.”
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 14:16:18

Some of you are saying that gradual change is in fact what the fossil record shows, but in my encounters with writings on this subject its been stated that gradualism is not broadly seen, rather its stability for long periods followed by major changes in short periods of time (relatively of course to geologic time scales). If the facts themselves are in dispute how can anything interesting be determined?
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Re: Evolution

Unread postby killJOY » Sun 28 Aug 2005, 14:18:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MONTE', 'P')unctuated equilibrium is more an observation of catastrophic events and a steady state, rather than a theory of evolution.
Exxactomundo. Beautifully stated.
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