[holmes]

"Her first example of the wonders of charging these fees is in the Mount Hood National Forest, where timber companies meanwhile get paid millions to clearcut sensitive ecosystems."

People like myself who have very little impact on the land and blend into nature are increasingly paying more and more. and being denied accesss to more and more. while bloated fat kings and their filth and greed are given carte blanche. "WE the people" in america is dead. You are doing it all for the kings. free nation. LOL.
To those that support the corporations and their welfare and have the gall to call themselves "true Americans" bring shame to us all. They should be ashamed of themsleves. and Yes America resemples more and more NAZI and FASCIST.
Soon real humans wont be able to access public lands. O wait we already arent in many spots and its growing. responsible hunters kept off areas while terrorist minority rvers drive our lands to desertification.
I laugh at the military today and these civililian "patriots" who atany opportunity spout off about how they are true americans and all else are "liberal" traitors. LOL. They aint doing shit for our country. just a bunch of slaves to the elites. getting rersources for the bloats back home. sadly. sit in your house watch tv and play video games and never leave the confines of sprawl. Just what they want. their aint enough of us to stop them.
If it was up to me Id have all the miltitary back home cleaning up the COMMONS. locking down the borders. stopping all immigration and greening up the nation. Id put the corporations in their place. this is just a dream. Its too late. the shit has risen to the top.
tragedy of the commons. wea re becoming just one bg joke. unfortuantley we disdnt have the balls to do something about it years ago. the path is set now..

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/323447.shtml

[PhilBiker]

I'd be willing to bet, given the source, that "clearcut" is not really what's happening and this is a typical environmentalist overstatement. Timbering is not evil. Forests are renewable.

[Sencha]

I think Holmes is right on target with his words. The elites hate us, they are indirectly killing us. Politicians and other individuals which wield the immense power they do, are some of the most inhuman, out of touch people you will ever see.

These people having nothing in common with us at all, they might as well belong to a different species altogether. They know they are going to survive whatever happens in the future, they've got all the protection and the resouces to do it. The upper classes look down on us, just as the middle can look down on the lower, and the lower can look down on those who aren't recognized by society in any socioeconomic bracket whatsoever.

Every income level might as well be considered its own "race", and its called that for a reason. The bourgeoise really are the masters that they probably think they are. They are winning the race, they will do whatever it takes to stay on top of the food chain. If Orwell were alive today he'd be re-writing 1984 as a period piece.

[ubercrap]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PhilBiker', 'I')'d be willing to bet, given the source, that "clearcut" is not really what's happening and this is a typical environmentalist overstatement. Timbering is not evil. Forests are renewable.

[0mar]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PhilBiker', 'I')'d be willing to bet, given the source, that "clearcut" is not really what's happening and this is a typical environmentalist overstatement. Timbering is not evil. Forests are renewable.

[PhilBiker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ubercrap', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PhilBiker', 'I')'d be willing to bet, given the source, that "clearcut" is not really what's happening and this is a typical environmentalist overstatement. Timbering is not evil. Forests are renewable.

[bobaloo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'d be willing to bet, given the source, that "clearcut" is not really what's happening and this is a typical environmentalist overstatement. Timbering is not evil. Forests are renewable.

[PhilBiker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('0mar', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PhilBiker', 'I')'d be willing to bet, given the source, that "clearcut" is not really what's happening and this is a typical environmentalist overstatement. Timbering is not evil. Forests are renewable.

[PhilBiker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bobaloo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'d be willing to bet, given the source, that "clearcut" is not really what's happening and this is a typical environmentalist overstatement. Timbering is not evil. Forests are renewable.

[I_Like_Plants]

Holmes you hit it right on the head. And yes the US political/economic system is Fascism, Mussolini called it Corporatism first, then came up with Fascism as a snapper name, after the Fasces, a symbol of Roman power. You may know the Fasces as that thingie on the other side of the old US Mercury Dime, and apparently it's seen on a lot of courtroom walls too.

[I_Like_Plants]

Snappier

[seldom_seen]

come back out to the nortwest and see where whole hillsides have slumped off in to the river killing salmon runs because of soil erosion due to clearcut logging.

Then take a trip to Europe and study the dead and dying forests that no longer grow due to generations of "tree farming."

clearcut logging is about as sustainable as our dependence on fossil fuels.

[backstop]

Phil & all -

I see some common ground here that's all too rarely dicussed, so here's my twopennorth.

A clearcut forest will regenerate, pretty slowly, if its not grazed off by sheep and or deer and or rabbits.

Unless there are substantial areas left standing, the range of species (animals, plants, fungi & others) will be substantially reduced for generations in the regrown forest. This implies deer fencing or regular culling to give the young growth a good chance.

Much of the logging industry (Not All) could care less about the quality of second-growth forest ecology - GMO saplings are planted to maximize uniformity and thus efficiency of mechanical harvesting. Just in terms of soil loss, let alone habitat & biodiversity loss, this dated attitude is wholly unsustainable.

That said, what is really needed is for people to actively support best practice in forestry, not merely by buying only accredited produce, but also, if they actually care about forests' survival, by getting jobs in those firms using best practice and helping them to compete against the profiteering incompetence that has denuded too much of the planet.

Here in the UK, with about 5% native tree cover, I'm quite regularly felling trees, mostly for posts & firewood but occaisionally for the mobile mill to come & plank. But much more time gets spent lifting good saplings to where they've got a chance, keeping the sheep-fences sound, pruning, and so forth.

Personally I'm damn sure we need to fell a huge number of trees, after planting a truly massive number in a global project for reforestation. Regardless of the scale of lobbying that project simply won't happen on more than a photo-op gesture-scale unless there is a commercial return on investment - which means felling the produce.

My hope is that we don't have to look to current markets to make that produce profitable. We have, potentially, a huge new demand for the liquid fuel methanol, which runs ICE, Turbines and Fuel Cells, at a conversion rate of around 2Ts Methanol from 3Ts dry wood.

If anyone is interested by this prospect for restoring the commercial viability of sustainable forestry, its worth googling Mitsubishi to see the progress of their engineering research on the methanol option.


regards,

Backstop

[holmes]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PhilBiker', 'I')'d be willing to bet, given the source, that "clearcut" is not really what's happening and this is a typical environmentalist overstatement. Timbering is not evil. Forests are renewable.

[Chaparral]

[quote="PhilBiker] The East was truly clearcut and not seeded, and the resulting natural forest revival is virtually the same mixed species desiduous forest that existed before (I

I'd be willing to bet that the west will see a similar fate. Have you spent any quality time with the second growth redwood forests in California?[/quote]

Broadleaf deciduous forest seems to be an extraordinarily user-friendly community, much more so than tropical and temperate rain-forests or some of the Western montane forests. In Michigan and Wisconsin I've seen strip-mined gravel pits on their way to recovery within 30 years and clearcuts on their way back within 10 years and this with no seeding. I highly doubt that other forest types would recover like those in the Eastern US. I'd wager that the soils and precipitation cause the difference.

A clearcut in Wisconsin = no prob. A clearcut in the Mendocino Coast or the San Jacinto Mtns would be more problematic. At any rate, those of us who want to leave only footprints and take only pictures really are getting shafted while the lumber cos really are feeding at the public trough and it's been going on for a very long time.

[backstop]

Holmes -

that's one thing you, Philbiker & I have in common.

We're none of us environmentalists.

I guess there's other things too.


Regards,

Backstop