[Colorado-Valley]

I've been wondering if such a thing might become the future for at least part of the U.S. middle class as energy depletion hits, jobs disappear and the housing bubble disappears into the past.

In 1980 we didn't exactly have bands of gypsies, but Western Colorado was inundated by jobless people from around the country desperately looking for work in the oil-shale fields of the time. Many of these people brought their families in station wagons, sleeping and camping out in the countryside.

The oil shale eventially crashed, OPEC was tamed and we got a 25-year respite from what seemed at the time like a country falling apart. This time, it appears oil depletion isn't political; it's destiny.

So is there a future in gypsy bands? Would they be reviled? Would they become a prominent sight on the old Interstates, clomping along with wagons amidst the occasional military convoy or Hummer caravan of the wealthy out to see the countryside?

[turmoil]

my cousin has a gypsy jazz guitar...maybe we'll see him out there.

[Colorado-Valley]

I must admit I've started looking at the sheepherder wagons around here with ... well, I wouldn't call it envy. But they always look so warm and cozy.

I have an architect friend who thinks we should start publishing "American Shantytown Magazine" to get ahead of the curve. We haven't figured out who would advertise in it yet.

[I_Like_Plants]

Just ask yourself if we had 'em in the 1930s (yes)

[medicvet]

Indeed they did..being an 'okie', I would know a little bit about that. My mom was born in durant, and migrated with her parents to California, where I was raised. Then I moved out here with my kids in 2000, and a year later, my parents followed, so I guess you could say we have done a reverse 'grapes of wrath'.

We have always been a mobile society in this nation, and I forsee that growing out of necessity as times get rough, and once again, as during the depression, people migrate to where the jobs are.

[dgacioch]

My grandfather tells stories of how he travelled about during the 30's. He migrated here from spain in the 20's to avoid the political problems there. He told me he started working in this country as a farmhand for basically a place to sleep, some food, and a very small salary. Starting from the east coast he worked in the coal mines in pennsylvania, and as work dried up he gradually migrated east and north. He told me lots of folks did that back during the depression. You would travel to where you heard they might be hiring and work for a while. Lots of factories would hire folks for temporary assignments lasting a couple weeks or a few months. When the work dried up, you moved on. Just the way it was. Gradually made his way up to detroit where he was fortunate enough to get in at fords working at the rouge complex. I have a feeling we're going to see a lot of that again. Work will probably be available, but permanent jobs with benefits are already disappearing from this country pretty rapidly. People are able to subsist and stay in one area due in large part to public assistance. Once that ends or cant keep up with rising costs of rent, utilities, etc, people are going to hit the road to try to find a better life. Story of mankind really. Can already see it here today with the mexicans risking their lives to try walking into the U.S. through the arizona and new mexico desert. Its sobering to think us gringo's might be heading back that way once the economy starts tanking here.

[dgacioch]

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I have no doubt that we are going to have a growing number of road people as things go from bad to worse. During the depression, the migrants were eyed more with pity. Everybody was having a hard time and it was easy to feel sorry for folks hitting the road to find work to feed themselves or their familes. In Europe however, the gypsies were considered amongst the lowest social class. Regarded mainly as thieves and con-artists.

I hope im wrong, but i dont think theres going to be much kindness extended by folks in the upcoming lean years. We really have become a nation of look out for number one, and trust no one. Bad things happen and we dont tend to look for solutions anymore, we simply look for a scapegoat. The family foraging on the road for work or food "did it to themselves" or "lazy father probably wont work", etc.

[I_Like_Plants]

Time to crack open that Steinbeck again, I don't get the impression the "gypsies" in the 1930s were treated with very much pity.

One thing that happened in the 1930s that I've only just become aware of, is that since the Depression meant roving "gypsies" of Caucasian descent from the dust bowl were competing with "gypsies" from mexico, the US sent a couple million "mexicans" home. That's a lot, considering what were in the US were a fraction of what's here now. A lot of these "mexicans" had US citizenship too! This eased off when WWII came and those Caucasian "gypsies" were able to get jobs in war work, or join the military, and the "mexicans" were needed to do the scut work. Then the "bracero" program was brought in and they were welcome, as long as they didn't intend to stay. The Powers That Be expected the US to perhaps go right back into Depression after WWII, and there was in fact a recession right after the war. Hidden history is fun!

[gg3]

There's an inherent problem with an increase in people who don't have clear geographic roots.

Game theory shows that when people expect single-iteration transactions, they tend to defect on others; and when they expect multiple-iteration tranactions, they tend to cooperate with others.

"Single-iteration" means "I'm not going to see that guy again," and "defect" means "so I may as well screw him over."

"Multiple-iteration" means "I'm going to have to deal with that guy again and again," and "cooperate" means "so I ought to play fair" (either on the basis of principle, or for avoiding a penalty).

If you have the ability to keep traveling, you can create a scenario for yourself where you can minimize the probability of interacting with the same people more than once. In this scenario, you can screw others and keep moving, and chances are they won't catch up to you.

If you're geographically rooted in a stable community, you interact with the same people again and again. In this scenario, you have to play fair or people will stop doing business with you. This scenario doesn't eliminate competition per se, it just creates ethical boundaries.

This (single-iteration / defect) is the basis for the stereotype about gypsies being con-artists and thieves: enough of them were, that the rest got tagged with the label whether they deserved it or not.

Traditional nomadic cultures have ethical rules governing their conduct with members of their own culture and with other cultures. These rules evolve over generations and select for behaviors that enable the nomads to continue to exist among geographically-rooted cultures.

In a situation where nomadicism is sudden and involuntary, without a history of nomadic ethical rules, there is a greater likelihood of various forms of criminality breaking out and becoming commonplace. This in turn will lead to hostility toward nomads in general. The situation could be ameliorated by systems that enable nomads to provide immediate and verifyable reputation data to others, and thereby establish trust and acceptance in business dealings and social interactions.