[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ammonia-guy', '[')b]To eric_b--
and we have developers in the network who want to build wind to ammonia farms today.

[ammonia-guy]

To TarSands--

I think ES gave you the answer. It depends on your hydrogen containing feedstock.

Natural Gas
Coal
Biomass
Water (wind, nuc, solar, hydro)

Of course, water is the best source. The challenge is to reap the inexpensive energy from wind, sun, thermal gradiets, waves, etc. to crack the water. Then ammonia can be made carbon free.

[JudoCow09]

JudoCow09 is my name if you were adressing me; tar sands is just the rating of the site

[ammonia-guy]

To ES--

Good thinking on the wind to ammonia. Actually, my favorite scenario is to

- take 1/3 or so of the wind-electric power from, say, Altamount in California

- electrolyze water (so there needs to be a water supply)

- operate a just-right-sized H-B unit to convert to ammonia

- tanker truck (or build inexpensive pipeline) to carry the ammonia to, say, the hydrogen stations on the Ca Hydrogen Highway

- reform the ammonia to H2

- 1/3 of the Altamount power would easily supply all the hydrogen needed for the existing number of stations, with room for growth

- incidentally, I have proposed this to the Ca Clean Air Board and Energy Council

AG

[ammonia-guy]

To Caoimhan and ES--

If I understood your comments about "Genetic engineering of nitrogenase", I think you're on a super track. As you know, all mammals produce urea, nominally about 5% of urine. Urea + water gives 2 ammonias and one CO2. This reaction is sluggish, though, and is activated in nature (read compost heaps and outdoor toilets) by urease bacteria.

Some network colleagues and I have developed a process for capturing urea from waste treatment plants, dairy, hog and chicken farm, etc. and converting that to ammonia. We're trying to market that to USDA and EPA. Been a slow sell so far, in spite of spoiled air and water in places like the Chesapeake Bay.

We're also in touch with large dairy farmers, who between the manure and the urea could make themselves energy independent and even sell some electricity back to the grid.

All in good time. AG

[gnm]

Excellent thread ESpin, and greetings Ammonia-Guy!

If DOE is giving the thumbs down to onboard cracking of ammonia for fuel cell type vehicles, I would think that carrying ammonia onboard for and ICE would be pretty unpopular too. I suppose pressure would have to build from public outcry.

But as far as problems which face us in the near future concerning supply it seems that our real problem is ramping up electrical production rapidly enough. Ammonia would seem to be an effective carrier but even with using natural gas as a feedstock I don't think we could meet current consumption. The new energy bill gives incentives to build nuclear power plants but I fear it will be too little too late.

I think what we really need is full throttle deployment of nuclear power plants and an immediate widespread deployment of rail.

I'm not trying to be a doomer just wondering what the real production potential is relative to current or even conservation level demand. I did the numbers on biodiesel and ethanol and it was unfortunately rather depressing.

like you said ES, -as fast as the concrete can dry...

-G

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ammonia-guy', '[')u][b]T
* What does "PM" mean?

AG

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '
')
I'm not trying to be a doomer just wondering what the real production potential is relative to current or even conservation level demand. I did the numbers on biodiesel and ethanol and it was unfortunately rather depressing.

like you said ES, -as fast as the concrete can dry...

-G

[hotsacks]

I
And maybe the answer is in algal processes; the smaller the better. Nature has already provided us mith self-replicating micromachines. They are called bacteria[QUOTE]

The irony is that algae is probably the organism responsible for the creation of oil in the first place.The 'micromachine' also produces a great deal of our oxygen.
And,woe to the system!!!,it grows in your backyard.

[Tanada]

Can anyone tell me the prospects for adding pure anyhydrous ammonia to the four main liquid fuels as a meathod of stretching supplies? In particular can you mix Ammonia with regular Gasoline in the same way you add in Ethanol to make Gasahol at say 15%/85%?

Even if we can't have ICE's burning pure ammonia if we can add it to gasoline and get useful energy out it would help streach supplies further. Especially if you can add it to Gasahol redfucing the Gasoline component while maintaining the 15% ethanol content of total fuel.

Anyone have exact answers for this one?

[ammonia-guy]

Welcome to the thread Tanada, and good question. Before I attempt to answer that, I had promised to provide the link to last October's Ammonia meeting in Iowa. Some very good information in the presentations...

http://www.energy.iastate.edu/renewable ... iaMtg.html

Now, to your question. One of the cool properties of ammonia is its ability to dissolve most anything, particularly organic stuff. It's a wonderful solvent. That's why it's such a good household cleaner, even in water solution. I know of nobody who's done anything like adding ammonia to gasoline to stretch the gasoline, but at first glance, it might appear that ammonia-gasoline, ammonia-ethanol, etc. might just make fine mixes. It would be interesting to see how they burn and what the emissions are. I'll bounce the idea off some of my ammonia colleagues.

[ammonia-guy]

I think I spoke too soon. Since gasoline is a non-polar molecule and ammonia is polar, I don't believe they'll be miscible. Water dissolves ammonia nicely since it's also polar, but gasoline, ethanol, and other hydrocarbons probably won't.

On the other hand, hydrogen (non-polar) might dissolve pretty well in gasoline, but has negligible solubility in water.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ammonia-guy', 'I') think I spoke too soon. Since gasoline is a non-polar molecule and ammonia is polar, I don't believe they'll be miscible. Water dissolves ammonia nicely since it's also polar, but gasoline, ethanol, and other hydrocarbons probably won't.

On the other hand, hydrogen (non-polar) might dissolve pretty well in gasoline, but has negligible solubility in water.

[Devil]

I do wish people would think and/or research before posting crap on this forum.

1, Ammonia is NOT an organic compound, never has been, never will be.

2. Ethanol is both organic and polar

3. Ammonia is a reasonably good solvent for many organic compounds

4. Ammonia is 70% inert and thus not a good fuel. It is very difficult to combust in air, but does combust readily in pure oxygen.

5. A mixture of water, ammonia, ethanol and gasoline would almost certainly separate. The ammoniated water at the bottom would be OK for washing the windscreen, but not for running the engine.

[ammonia-guy]

To Devil--

No need to be unkind. Folks are just brainstorming here. New ideas are given birth that way. In fact, I was intrigued after Tanada's idea about mixtures, and I have our Iowa colleagues looking into ethanol-ammonia mixes. Ethanol from corn, ammonia from wind. We'd never given that any thought, but they think it could work.

In response to one of your comments.

[QUOTE]4. Ammonia is 70% inert and thus not a good fuel. It is very difficult to combust in air, but does combust readily in pure oxygen.

I think this statement is misleading, and largely incorrect. I don't know where the 70% figure comes from. Maybe you're thinking of ammonia dissolved in water. Anhydrous ammonia is stoichemetrically 75% hydrogen, and 18% hydrogen on a weight basis (so by weight that would be 82% inert, I guess). However, ammonia has about 52% of the energy density of gasoline, and that's all clean hydrogen energy, whereas about half of the energy from gasoline comes from burning the carbon in the molecule.

Because of ammonia's high ignition energy, it is indeed very difficult to combust in air (i.e. at atmospheric), which is a good safety feature. However, researchers have found out that when compressed in the cylinder of an ICE, it burns just fine with standard spark plugs. And, of course, it can be fed directly to SOFCs, Alkaline FCs, and Proton Conducting Ceramic Fuel Cells.

Your statement about burning better with oxygen is true, of course. Remember the LOX-Ammonia powered X-15 rocket plane.

Our ammonia research group is going to be looking at ammonia "spiked" with 2 to 7 percent hydrogen, as well as pure ammonia in an ICE. I suspect we'll find that both work fine.

[Caoimhan]

ammonia-guy,

What kind of NOX emissions result from burning ammonia in an ICE? I mean, not all the Nitrogen will end up bonding covalently, right? Also, water will be produced by the reaction, but will there also be any nitric acid in the exhaust mix?

I also wonder about using ammonia in something like a Star Rotor engine: www.starrotor.com The Star Rotor uses variable compression ratios to control engine speed. What is the minimum compression ratio for ammonia to burn cleanly, assuming a regular fuel-air mixture (no additional oxidizer)?

[ammonia-guy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat kind of NOX emissions result from burning ammonia in an ICE? I mean, not all the Nitrogen will end up bonding covalently, right? Also, water will be produced by the reaction, but will there also be any nitric acid in the exhaust mix?

I also wonder about using ammonia in something like a Star Rotor engine: www.starrotor.com The Star Rotor uses variable compression ratios to control engine speed. What is the minimum compression ratio for ammonia to burn cleanly, assuming a regular fuel-air mixture (no additional oxidizer)?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Devil', 'I') do wish people would think and/or research before posting crap on this forum.

1, Ammonia is NOT an organic compound, never has been, never will be.

2. Ethanol is both organic and polar

3. Ammonia is a reasonably good solvent for many organic compounds

4. Ammonia is 70% inert and thus not a good fuel. It is very difficult to combust in air, but does combust readily in pure oxygen.

5. A mixture of water, ammonia, ethanol and gasoline would almost certainly separate. The ammoniated water at the bottom would be OK for washing the windscreen, but not for running the engine.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ammonia-guy', ' ') Folks are just brainstorming here. New ideas are given birth that way. In fact, I was intrigued after Tanada's idea about mixtures, and I have our Iowa colleagues looking into ethanol-ammonia mixes. Ethanol from corn, ammonia from wind. We'd never given that any thought, but they think it could work.

[EnergySpin]

Ammonia is a molecule with HUGE dipole movement. This is why it is usually found in the form of NH4+ in aqueous solutions (including our own body, generated by glutaminase in the kidney)
The solubility of NH3 in ethanol should be ok;
Going back to the basics, we see that the nitrogen in ammonia has an electron pair that is available for a hydrogen bonding with the hydrogen atom in the hydroxyl group of the ethanol (and methanol).
Regarding the solubility of ammonia in gasoline:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he typical composition of gasoline hydrocarbons (% volume) is as follows: 4-8% alkanes; 2-5%
alkenes; 25-40% isoalkanes; 3-7% cycloalkanes; l-4% cycloalkenes; and 20-50% total aromatics
(0.5-2.5% benzene) (IARC 1989).