[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'H')ow much will this cost? $ 1 billion would be a competitive price.

[EnergySpin]

More data ... on capital expenditures for Thermal Solar
From:
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/994186938_2.html

Consider the Arizona plant:
The system has an average capacity of 133 kW and a capital cost of $4900/kW.

[abelardlindsay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'M')ore data ... on capital expenditures for Thermal Solar
From:
http://www.crest.org/articles/static/1/994186938_2.html

Consider the Arizona plant:
The system has an average capacity of 133 kW and a capital cost of $4900/kW.

[EnergySpin]

EE times actually had an article on the technology.
here
the cost for the prototypes (25KW) is $150K .... projected to go down to $50K. It is very simple technology, twice as efficient in generating electricity compared to photovoltaics and has a much higher density than hydro.
At the very least it can help with emissions. Decrease the load of coal and nuclear power plants.
Perfect tool for an economy that will not grow hehehe

[Raminagrobis]

Yes, really great news. A few extra informations and thoughts :



- Construction will be in the 2008-2011 timeframe (SCE site) This
means SES will have to build a factoiy able to produce 5000 units per
year at least - unless they subcontract part of the work.

- SCE won't have to wait until 2011 to get some "juice" : electricity
will be injected into the grid as soon as the first dish is built.
This is a positive result of the modular conception.

- This modular conception is also nice for reliability. Some dishes
can be outline, this don't affect the other ones. If they have some
redondancy in in grid-connection systems, they'll get an very high
availability ratio.

- A dish stirling produce twice as much electricity as a
solar-tracking flat PV pannel of the same size, and is cheaper.

- This, except prototypes and desmo projects, is the first "real"
project for dish-strirling. And it will give 500 MW!! I think it's
the first time an energy technology starts that big. Wind power has
been around for 25 years, and grew gradually, so that the larger
projects now are also around 500 MW. Even nukes didn"'t start that
big, the first reactors were only a few MW's.

- Unfortunately, SES says it's now targetting only utility market so
nobody can buy one or two dishes "for at least two years". Too bad,
because one or two of the 25kW dishes could be nice for an hotel, a
small business, an hospital...Perharps another company could buy them
dishes in large numbers and sell them in retail?

- They promise a cost of electricity of 0.06$/kWh for large projects.
If they manage to do that, this is competitive : roughly the same
price than wind power, but production occurs at daytime (more valuable
electricity) and is quite reliable (in a desert, wheather is quite
predictable)

- Electricity is made only during daytime, but this is not a problem
because demand is lower at night. By the way, many electric plants are
stopped during the night.

- Land occupied by suuch a "solar farm" is tiny compared to hydro :
for instance, the hoover dam flooded 247 square miles, and a "solar
farm" would need only 11 square miles to produce as much energy. In
addition, the solar farm can be put in an otherwise useless desert,
while the dam flood a valley, that is often a a very rich place (both
for nature and humans).

- This new energy technology could complement nuclear reactors, dams,
wind turbine and coal with CO2-sequestration to get a zero or near
zero CO2 electricity mix.

- Being adopted by a large utility like Edison makes this technology
very credible, so that from now on, every utilities will take solar
thermal energy very seriously.

[EnergySpin]

A few thoughts on the operating costs, because something does not add up
Assume that operating costs are X% of the CAPEX.
That brings us to $150K(1+x) with the economies of scale operating today
Each unit will be generating (on average) 60000KWh/yr or over 30 years 1800000 KWh of electricity. Assume that is sold for Y $. Then to break even
150000(1+x) = 1800000 Y => 1+x = 12 Y.
If x = 10% then you should sell electricity for 9c just to break even. At 20% it is 10c and at 30% it is 11c. So unless the initial expenditure goes down I cannot see them selling it at 6.6-6.5 c/KWh and make a profit.
If the initial cost does go down to 50K per unit then the numbers change as follows:
1+x = 36 Y which means that they would have to sell at 3.7c per KWh to get back their investment even at a 36% operating cost.
Note though the pervasive power of existing infrastructure. If the price of electricity goes up in CA due to natural gas shortage they will never be able to go down at that level. This simple fact eludes all the economists; the price of renewables will always be more expensive at the beginning unless supported by subsidies

[Starvid]

6 cents a kWh?! I don't believe it! It's only twice as much as coal or nuclear!

If this is true, solar will, for the first time in world history, be useful for generating electricity!

Even though this has zero effect on PO, it is still a great breakthrough for solar electricity.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '6') cents a kWh?! I don't believe it! It's only twice as much as coal or nuclear!

If this is true, solar will, for the first time in world history, be useful for generating electricity!

Even though this has zero effect on PO, it is still a great breakthrough for solar electricity.

[Googolplex]

Don't overlook the simplicity either guys.

One thing I really like here is how simple and repairable this technology is. Its all basically mirrors, simple mechanical engines, and generators. We could continue to build and repair these things LONG after high-tech high-energy solutions like photovoltaics and nucular plants are no longer feasable.

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Googolplex', 'D')on't overlook the simplicity either guys.

One thing I really like here is how simple and repairable this technology is. Its all basically mirrors, simple mechanical engines, and generators. We could continue to build and repair these things LONG after high-tech high-energy solutions like photovoltaics and nucular plants are no longer feasable.

[GoIllini]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'T')he problem is that for the most part this technology is arriving too late to save consumer civilization. Oil is peaking right now and it will be years before just this one plant gets built. The stock market could crash next week. There needed to be a Manhatten project to deploy all these new technologies right now because now is when we need them.

[Googolplex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergySpin', 'I')'m sorry to say that as long as we have electricity ... CSP/PV and nuclear will be feasible. If we lose the ability to make PV/nuclear plants (which we will not, I'm tired of that BS) then CSP will not be possible.

[Andy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Googolplex', 'C')onsider the whole supply chain, from raw materials on up, and you can see that this simple and efficent method of solar power generation does not require anywhere near the high precision, high purity of refined materials, and massive infrastructure for production that PV and nuclear do. This is steal, glass, and mechanical systems not even at the level of your car.

[Googolplex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Andy', 'A')greed that it is simpler technology than PV/Nuclear but that doesn't make it simple.

[Raminagrobis]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '6') cents a kWh?! I don't believe it! It's only twice as much as coal or nuclear!

If this is true, solar will, for the first time in world history, be useful for generating electricity!

Even though this has zero effect on PO, it is still a great breakthrough for solar electricity.

[Starvid]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raminagrobis', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '6') cents a kWh?! I don't believe it! It's only twice as much as coal or nuclear!

If this is true, solar will, for the first time in world history, be useful for generating electricity!

Even though this has zero effect on PO, it is still a great breakthrough for solar electricity.

[dmtu]

Maybe Jeremy Rifkin was kinda right when he predicted in The Hydrogen Economy that many houses could produce all of the energy required to run a household to include vehicle fuel.

He suggested that individual houses could use solar collected during the day while everyone is at work or school and convert that energy to hydrogen. The Hydrogen could then be used to power the house during the night and even fuel the vehicles. You must admit this is an interesting concept.

I suppose the only way for this dream to be realized would be to scale this system down and get the utilities to release the technology on the open market.

Think it would work?

[EnergySpin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dmtu', '
')The Hydrogen could then be used to power the house during the night and even fuel the vehicles. You must admit this is an interesting concept.

I suppose the only way for this dream to be realized would be to scale this system down and get the utilities to release the technology on the open market.

[Raxozanne]

I was wondering if California ever has really bad hail storms.
I only mention it because apparently this was a problem with solar panels in the Australian outback.

[Googolplex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', 'S')adly, stirling solar is impossible in Sweden. This is not exactly sunny California (Uppsala is on the same latitude as Anchorage, I am not kidding).