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A-Peak-alypse Now!

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Is the peak now?

Poll ended at Fri 19 Aug 2005, 21:07:22

Yes
80
No votes
No
38
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Total votes : 118

Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby anthem » Fri 12 Aug 2005, 22:52:13

You're preachin' to the choir, feller.
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby Novus » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 13:27:17

Looks like you are little behind the curve here. The 1.5mbpd slack has been eaten up in the last few months by the half million SUVs GM and Ford dumped on the market and stronger then expected growth in China. The world has peaked and things will never be the same.

Image
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby pilferage » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 17:58:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'L')ooks like you are little behind the curve here. The 1.5mbpd slack has been eaten up in the last few months by the half million SUVs GM and Ford dumped on the market and stronger then expected growth in China. The world has peaked and things will never be the same.

Image


Just because supply looks like it's going to outpace demand doesn't mean we're at peak. So long as we can still pump out greater volumes of oil per time period then we haven't peaked, even if we can't keep up with demand.

If anything, this is better for our economy since we'll see large increases in price before the actual peak and have more time to adjust. If oil was $10 a barrel and we started seeing 3-5% declines in production, that'd cuase much more economic BS than if the same happens with oil at $100 a barrel.
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. "
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby jimmydean » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 20:37:04

If individuals worldwide begin conserving because of cost we could easily see a demand softening of 10M bbl/day imho.

EIA numbers indicate UK is about 3x more efficient that the U.S. or Canada. 1 bbl of oil services 44 people in the UK/day versus only 15 or so in U.S./Canada. Greater use of public transportation and driving of smaller fuel efficient cars are probably the key reasons. Also milder winter does have a positive affect.

If we simply saw people driving less and taking public transport more it would have a huge effect. I predict a pain threshold exists at the pump which will curb demand. Until that point oil will go up up up. When people start conserving it will head down.

It's time for governments to outlaw auto manufacturers from production of V8 motors and strongly regulate size of V6 engines for personel transportation.
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby Leanan » Sat 13 Aug 2005, 23:16:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's time for governments to outlaw auto manufacturers from production of V8 motors and strongly regulate size of V6 engines for personel transportation.


That could help a lot, and I believe some countries already do that. We should also reinstate the 55 mph (90km/h) speed limit, and raising taxes on gasoline. Limiting SUVs to 40 mph (65 km/h) would also help a lot. It would discourage people from buying the monsters, as well as increase their efficiency. (Because they are so high and boxy, their most fuel efficient speed is lower than that of cars.)

But that's not going to happen in the U.S. Not with the current government. Even after 9/11, when Americans would have done anything for the sake of their country, the current crop of politicians didn't ask anyone to sacrifice anything. They could have started a WWII-type conservation program. ("If you drive alone, you drive with bin Laden.") They could have declared that we would spend 1 billion dollars a week on alternative energy or mass transit or conservation technology, instead of pouring it down the rathole of Iraq. But they didn't. Instead, they asked us to go shopping, in order to keep the economy going. :P
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby deconstructionist » Sun 14 Aug 2005, 22:57:40

we're at or beyond peak. production hasn't started to decline yet due to the practice of pumping water and detergents into their wells to keep the pressure up and to keep production consistant. when it eventually does start to decline, it will be a rapid decline...
UNLESS
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby Daculling » Sun 14 Aug 2005, 23:34:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Limiting SUVs to 40 mph (65 km/h) would also help a lot. It would discourage people from buying the monsters, as well as increase their efficiency. :P


Wow! Best idea EVAR!
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby Eli » Sun 14 Aug 2005, 23:49:48

People will dump those monster trucks faster than you can say Honda civic when gas goes over 4.00 bucks a gallon. A bike hopefully will start to become a commuter vehicle again in the US.

This sure as hell feels like peak. And even if peak is 4 or 5 years off (It is here now IMHO) historians will point to this time as the start of Peak Oil.

The key to the whole thing is Saudi Arabia. If they have hit peak, we all have hit peak. Since all the oil they have been dumping on the market lately to try and cool prices has been heavy sour crude to me that is a strong indication that they have hit peak.

And it ain't good when IEA says non-opec is not delivering as much oil as expected.
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 15 Aug 2005, 00:54:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'I') see only a couple reasons why the 50% increase in gas prices in the last year has not changed America's driving habits.

1. We had a hell of alot more free cash per capita than anyone thought (most of America is up to their eyeballs in personal debt)

2. The amount we actually drive is quite close to the amount we have to drive just to survive.


Close. People are living off of the refi-ATM of the "perceived" wealth in their homes.

And I think we have built our culture around the car even more so since the last gas crisis. SUV's are used for more than just transportation. We are more of a more "service" economy as well.

I think gas demand will go up even as the price increases until the housing bubble pops.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby holmes » Mon 15 Aug 2005, 13:36:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'I') see only a couple reasons why the 50% increase in gas prices in the last year has not changed America's driving habits.

1. We had a hell of alot more free cash per capita than anyone thought (most of America is up to their eyeballs in personal debt)

2. The amount we actually drive is quite close to the amount we have to drive just to survive.


Close. People are living off of the refi-ATM of the "perceived" wealth in their homes.

And I think we have built our culture around the car even more so since the last gas crisis. SUV's are used for more than just transportation. We are more of a more "service" economy as well.

I think gas demand will go up even as the price increases until the housing bubble pops.


You are correct according to my observations. I drive bike and walk 95% of the time. Most autos are suvs, big monster truck type things , rvs, bigger cars. very few small autos. most are just for cruising and having fun. The lines and lines of suvs and rvs is sobering. the traffic on the highways are mostly trucks and suvs. and the money is really "not there". This is daily observations. not just weekends. However I am finding motorbikers much more firendly in general to us pedal bikers. just a funny thing to add in there. :-D. And I am alos observing wherever i go folks are charging to credit cards. a late, a hamburger, a soy cappucino late, grocieries, etc.. charging it.
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby fossil_fuel » Mon 15 Aug 2005, 14:07:43

i charge almost everythign to a credit card, even a $1 soda, but i pay off the balance at the end of each month. i like the credit card because i don't like to carry around large amounts of cash.
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby MonteQuest » Mon 15 Aug 2005, 14:27:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('fossil_fuel', 'i') charge almost everythign to a credit card, even a $1 soda, but i pay off the balance at the end of each month. i like the credit card because i don't like to carry around large amounts of cash.


Me too, but alot of folks aren't paying them off each month on an ever increasing basis, and even being late with payments. Last figures I saw said 27% of people are doing this.

Can you imagine paying 29% default interest on a late payments for soda pop and potato chips? 8O
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby jtmorgan61 » Mon 15 Aug 2005, 16:02:40

Looking at the various meta-analyses of major projects coming online in the next few years, I think we still have perhaps 5 years until conventional oil peaks.

However, we are clearly past the peak of excess capacity. Supply will never get as far ahead of demand again as it did in the late '90's. Prices will not keep growing as fast as they have the past year, but they may slowly slide upwards from here until they cause a recession (and prices dip, and then rise again... etc.)
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby jtmorgan61 » Mon 15 Aug 2005, 16:05:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')imes past like in Ancient Egypt it would take many years to complete a city or a wonder...but the people would put in hard hours because they somehow knew their grandchildren would see these great cities and wonders...


You mean, because they were slaves and the rulers didn't care how many of them building the monument killed?

When will people wrap their minds around the fact that culture was *not* better in the old days, just more explicitly aggressive and smaller scale?
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby ab0di » Mon 15 Aug 2005, 17:02:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'L')imiting SUVs to 40 mph (65 km/h) would
also help a lot.


Just to be a bit nitpicky. Most modern cars (and SUVs) get their best mileage around 55-60 mph so restricting them to 40 would be counter-productive as far as fuel saving is concerned. It would help get them off the road, however.

As far as the peak is concerned, I think that we are driving along an increasingly bumpy plateau at the moment...perhaps lasting to 2010. After that I see us going over a steep cliff. if we survive that, we'll probably end up with the energy usage (and a population?) that we had in the 1870s.
All politics emanates from a barrel of oil. -- after Mirabeau
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Re: A-Peak-alypse Now!

Postby NEOPO » Tue 16 Aug 2005, 05:21:18

amen!!
halleluiah!!
preach on preacher man!!!

I prefer my poison kool-aid slightly chilled with just a hint of lemon :o
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