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Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Discuss research and forecasts regarding hydrocarbon depletion.

Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 19 Feb 2023, 15:35:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jawagord', '
')
The mistake these reports all make is to assume the rest of the world is the same Economically and Politically as Europe/USA. The energy transitions fantasies that rich countries can indulge in by borrowing huge sums of money to subsidize unreliable wind and solar are not available to poor countries.


Very true very true. makes you wonder what those Billions think when they see the twaddle on TV. Even in villages of the third world there are lots of TVs, but huts and shanties covered in solar panels?


All the third world countries are continuing to build coal-fired power plants. So does China. So does India. So does Germany, for that matter.

Image

The new CO2 emissions from all the new coal-fired plants will swamp any reductions in CO2 emissions from the US and the EU.

Look for global CO2 emissions to continue to rise, global warming to intensify, and global heat waves, droughts, floods, superstorms, forest fires etc etc. all to continue to get worse and worse.

Cheers!
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 19 Feb 2023, 16:05:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')Look for global CO2 emissions to continue to rise, global warming to intensify, and global heat waves, droughts, floods, superstorms, forest fires etc etc. all to continue to get worse and worse.

Cheers!


Pretty much. Countries don't care much at all...and neither do CO super polluters in general. "Gonna get mine before it all melts!!" being the operative idea I guess.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby mousepad » Sun 19 Feb 2023, 17:42:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')All the third world countries are continuing to build coal-fired power plants. So does China. So does India. So does Germany, for that matter.


Strange. Don't we have a shitload of un-biased university and gov studies clearly showing that wind/solar is WAY cheaper than coal?
Could it be that the un-biased studies are not so un-biased after all? kublikhan can probably answer that. He's good with studies and identifying bias.
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby jato0072 » Mon 20 Feb 2023, 19:23:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')trange. Don't we have a shitload of un-biased university and gov studies clearly showing that wind/solar is WAY cheaper than coal?


Technology so awesome the Governor of California had to outlaw ICE vehicles and Natural Gas appliances!

Link

I now live in clown world.
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 20 Feb 2023, 22:41:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mousepad', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')All the third world countries are continuing to build coal-fired power plants. So does China. So does India. So does Germany, for that matter.


Strange. Don't we have a shitload of un-biased university and gov studies clearly showing that wind/solar is WAY cheaper than coal?


That is the claim. But interestingly, the more renewables they add to the system, the higher my electric bill seems to go. I wonder when the consumer gets to see the cheaper part?
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 26 Feb 2023, 06:28:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mousepad', 'D')on't we have a shitload of un-biased university and gov studies clearly showing that wind/solar is WAY cheaper than coal?


I've read a few of those over the years, toilet paper is all most are fit for. Now I just look at the world with my own eyes and see things like electricity costs going through the roof for anyone living in a state or nation that has gone full retard rebuildable solar and wind. How's that hydro plant at hoover dam going these days?

Over a decade ago I read a 'real' report from the state of San Paulo on their ethanol production. They were the darling that the other nations modeled their transitions on. 2m of rain every year, multiple growing seasons, virtual slave labor cutting and processing the cane and producing the ethanol. Yeah it worked for them, just!

The ceaseless chatter about EV's transforming the world reminds of the ceaseless chatter in the early 00's about how Ethanol was going to replace oil as the preferred fuel for cars. It seems like every generation has to get sucked into one of these schemes.

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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby jato0072 » Sun 26 Feb 2023, 12:06:12

Image

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A') report by the International Energy Agency (IEA) estimates that China manufactures over 80% of all solar cells and assembled solar panels. The country produces virtually all the wafers used for solar panels.


So I guess the Greens had better take the White House and get the Deep State to stop pissing off China. That is if they want to "Save the Planet". :lol:
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 26 Feb 2023, 18:32:39

"The China Price" it's an eyeopener what they do to keep the prices down, eventually though...
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 19 Jun 2023, 18:18:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')
Very true very true. makes you wonder what those Billions think when they see the twaddle on TV. Even in villages of the third world there are lots of TVs, but huts and shanties covered in solar panels?


All the third world countries are continuing to build coal-fired power plants. So does China. So does India. So does Germany, for that matter.


Of course they do, they can't afford to indulge in the delusions the Western governments do, with all their compounding debt. Debt in the West if free almost but African nations who borrow, through agencies like the IMF are constrained to pay it back in $US. So they build coal plants, because it's a lot cheaper and they will last for 40 or 60 years rather than the 20 years or less for rebuildables.

When they build a mine, and a factory, and a supply chain for rebuildables that isn't dependent on oil and coal I'll say rebuildables have a chance, but there is little chance of that is there. Recently they built a wind farm in north Queensland, on the top of a mountain. The earth-moving to build the roads and clear the pads was phenomenal, then the gazillion tons of concrete and steel needed to build the towers and bases. All an exercise in political posturing by the state's premier.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Mount Emerald was Queensland’s largest wind farm when it began generating power in late 2018 and is predicted to meet the annual needs of approximately 75,000 north Queensland homes over a 20-year period.


Cost 400 Million, and in 20 years it's worn out. $5300 per household (plus the interest on the loans) must be reclaimed before a profit can be made. There will be big increases in power costs obviously, and just as obviously households will react by reducing consumption. Anyone who can afford to (and here it's only $5000/home) will install rooftop solar and offset the cost, it's a cat chasing it's tail.

https://mtemeraldwindfarm.com.au/
2021 • Australia
The wind farms angering renewable energy fans
https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2021/12 ... ergy-fans/
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby theluckycountry » Wed 21 Aug 2024, 19:04:23

Image

Peak oil and the low-carbon energy transition: A net-energy perspective

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')bstract

Since the Pennsylvania oil rush of 1859, petroleum has quickly become the dominant fuel of industrial society. The “Peak Oil” debate focused on whether or not there was an impending production crunch of cheap oil, and whilst there have been no shortages across the globe, a shift from conventional to unconventional oil liquids has occurred.

One aspect of this shift was not fully explored in previous discussions, although of some importance in a low-carbon energy transition context ie: the extent to which the net-energy supply of oil products is affected by the use of lower quality energy sources. To fill this gap, this paper incorporates standard EROI (energy-return-on-investment) estimates and dynamic decline functions in the Global Shift all-liquids bottom-up model on a global scale. We determine the energy necessary for the production of oil liquids (including direct and indirect energy costs) to represent today 15.5% of the energy production of oil liquids, and growing at an exponential rate: by 2050, a proportion equivalent to half of the gross energy output will be engulfed in its own production.

Our findings thus question the feasibility of a global and fast low-carbon energy transition. We therefore suggest an urgent return of the peak oil debate, but including net-energy issues and avoiding a narrow focus on ‘peak supply’ vs ‘peak demand’.

Introduction

Today, oil is a critical supply chain component for 90% of all industrially manufactured products [1]; as such, it is the backbone of industrial civilization. Its large range of strategic advantages...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 1921011673

Ha! EROI, that's a conspiracy theory, so the mainstream media would have you believe. Just another solid fact that was inconvenient and subsequently denigrated by the "Oil Scientists" in the pay of the Blob, so to speak. Tell them anything, but not the truth, not the fact that Civilization as they know it is abruptly coming to an end.

But more and more oil is being used to get more and more oil out of the ground as the fields deplete (obvious 101). This was always my gripe with the shale oil boom (now bust) because so much energy was used to produce it there was little left over to run civilization, to repair America's broken roads and bridges for example. Remember it was the "Oil Boom" of the 1930's that built those amazing concrete interstate highways and put a paved road past every house nearly. What went wrong this time...
EROI. It's great at 100:1, at 15:1 the wheels start to fall off.

Now imagine 50% of the oil being burnt just to get the other 50% out. That leaves nothing at all after all the parasites take their cut. So oil for the rich and the military only as well as food production perhaps, but basically nothing for the rest of us. Like an extended version of what Venezuela is today. Or Sri Lanka, or Bangladesh, Miamar , South Africa, etc, etc. They are losing access to oil because they are "outbid" by us, the wealthy West. But their militaries are still well supplied as are the wealthy rulers and their toadies. The classic example of this is North Korea. All the energy directed to their military and the elites.

Pull up pictures of Miamar and you'll see this. It's a great place for monied up tourists. But there is another side to the nation. Energy depletion

Image

For Myanmar’s generals, energy crisis threatens shaky grip on power

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')yanmar’s natural gas reserves, a key revenue source for the ruling State Administration Council (SAC), are set to dwindle drastically in the coming years, posing a major threat to the generals already struggling to quell opposition to their rule.

Some petrol stations in Yangon have run out of supply while others have huge queues until late at night, a businessman in the commercial capital said. “The cost of electricity has increased by eight to 10 times since the coup. We need to use generators and the fuel price has gone up a lot,” the businessman, who declined to be named for safety reasons, told Al Jazeera. “Neither the military nor petrol stations have any control over what’s going on. The regime seems clueless on how such a shortage will hurt the economy,” he added.
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2023/ ... es-dwindle

Blame it on a coup but the leaders there are no different to the leaders in America. All are detached from reality, living in ivory castles. They will do what they must to maintain order and revenues. Generals are just politicians in uniforms, warlords if you like. Eventually all nations will follow this pattern. Some may retain their "democratically elected elites" but life on the ground will be the same for the average man.

The other side of Myanmar

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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 22 Aug 2024, 16:07:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')But more and more oil is being used to get more and more oil out of the ground as the fields deplete (obvious 101).

The "E" in eroi stands for "energy". Not oil.

In the field, I use very little oil over time as a field or region depletes, and certainly I don't throw more OIL at it. I even use less gasoline and diesel because of fewer truck miles, less diesel for rigs (the ones that aren't electric), I don't use oil for hauling, pumping or injecting water, or anything else really. Lubricant for engines? And that is still a finished product, all the oil involved we put in tanks and sell.

But please, I want to hear about how you managed to keep getting more and more oil out of your oilfields by throwing...oil....at it as opposed to the way everyone else does it. Perhaps this is why Australia can't make crap for oil production while the US buries the world in it?

I can vouch for scientists at CSIRO I've worked with in the past knowing that you don't throw oil at oilfields, but rather produce it from there, so I must assume this claim of yours is just another example of why it matters to at least get through high school.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 22 Aug 2024, 16:51:30

What are you doing down on this thread Adam? It's a bit past your pay grade mate. Best stick to things you have a feel for, like old EV's with degraded batteries. I saw from one of kubs quotes that you own a leaf, a leaf lol lol. You know I looked into them years ago, the real world battery life was the killer of them, like with all EV. Ugly little pus boxes, thankfully though I saw through to BS.
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby careinke » Fri 23 Aug 2024, 01:14:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')But more and more oil is being used to get more and more oil out of the ground as the fields deplete (obvious 101).

The "E" in eroi stands for "energy". Not oil.

In the field, I use very little oil over time as a field or region depletes, and certainly I don't throw more OIL at it. I even use less gasoline and diesel because of fewer truck miles, less diesel for rigs (the ones that aren't electric), I don't use oil for hauling, pumping or injecting water, or anything else really. Lubricant for engines? And that is still a finished product, all the oil involved we put in tanks and sell.

But please, I want to hear about how you managed to keep getting more and more oil out of your oilfields by throwing...oil....at it as opposed to the way everyone else does it. Perhaps this is why Australia can't make crap for oil production while the US buries the world in it?

I can vouch for scientists at CSIRO I've worked with in the past knowing that you don't throw oil at oilfields, but rather produce it from there, so I must assume this claim of yours is just another example of why it matters to at least get through high school.


Adam do you flare off the gas?? If so, you could turn that energy into money>

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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 23 Aug 2024, 03:12:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '
')
I can vouch for scientists at CSIRO I've worked with in the past


Adam do you flare off the gas?? If so, you could turn that energy into money>

PEACE


Adam can vouch for the scientists at the CSIRO :lol: :lol:

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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 23 Aug 2024, 17:43:06

This should kick the rapid transition along a bit

The World’s Biggest Gas Reservoir Is At A Tipping Point

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ran is embarking on a US$70 billion investment programme of measures to attempt to halt a dramatic decline in output from its crucial South Pars gas field. A failure to do so will result in the loss of 40 percent of the country’s petrol output from the Persian Gulf Star gas condensate refinery, and the addition of up to US$12 billion a year of petrochemical costs, according to Iranian Gas Institute forecasts.

“South Pars’ gas output provides nearly 80 percent of the our [Iran’s] total gas production, so it is vital to all segments of business and society that this does not drop significantly,” a senior energy industry source who works closely with Islamic Republic’s Petroleum Ministry exclusively told OilPrice.com last week.

...Given the size and scope of Phase 11, it became a focal point of Washington’s attention in the aftermath of the withdrawal, and it put the French under extreme pressure to pull out of the project. Under the terms of the contract, CNPC then took charge and little progress has been made since then.

This provides a microcosm of what has happened to Iran’s oil and gas sector since then. The key problem in the substitution of leading Western oil and gas firms with Chinese ones has been that the latter lack the latest technology available to the former. The same is now true of Russian oil and gas firms which have been denied much of the same technology through various sanctions since it invaded Ukraine’s Crimea region in 2014. According to assessments from Iran’s own National Development Fund, the country’s gas production will fall by at least 25 percent within the next 10 years due to falling pressure in the fields, with South Pars seeing a 30 percent decline.
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas ... Point.html

I really can't see a problem with this as far the long-term value of the field. If they are pulling it out a lot slower, and Russia is pulling it out a lot slower due to the reasons cited then they have energy in the bank for the decades ahead.

Common sense says that 60 or 70 years ago when they first became aware of this depletion phenomena (King Hubbert) plans should have been drawn up to limit the extraction and use of it. The US was in the ideal position to accomplish this because they basically controlled the World markets. There are multiple ways that could have been achieved, restricting vehicle size, building out rail instead of highways, even taxes to curb frivolous use. But nothing was done and now we have a global system that is 100% dependent on cheap oil and gas and output over the top of the Hubbert peak and declining. I mean using Gas to heat driveways and melt snow? Brainless.

Consume Consume and... Dieoff.

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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 25 Aug 2024, 22:41:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', 'W')hat are you doing down on this thread Adam?

Because a theory of rapid transition has been one of the possible outcomes of peak oil since internet forums went for it like mice to cheese. Rapid transition also includes the idea of the folks wanting to become Amish and those looking for hunting cabins and speculating on whats needed in their bug out bag.

Amusingly, few went for the idea that it would take as least as long as all the modern peak oil claims, currently known as the time period of 1989 to 2018 when it happened.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')It's a bit past your pay grade mate.

Call CSIRO and tell their folks to stop asking me about it then.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
') Best stick to things you have a feel for, like old EV's with degraded batteries.

You've got this REALLY bad problem of pretending you know things about me or my machines that just aren't true. I realize this comes from your inability to listen when I provide details, but you could at least try.

I have mentioned my estimates of battery degradation in the past. Would you like to discuss them so you don't misrepresent them?

And yes, they are old, WITH LOTS OF MILES ON THEM...and still doing it without repairs or battery replacement or much beyond some odds and ends. My old Lincoln needed an intake manifold in the same time frame...that one repair cost more than all my EVs maintenance or anything else across all their years and miles.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
') I saw from one of kubs quotes that you own a leaf, a leaf lol lol.

I do. I have talked about it before. Surprised you missed it, but then, I talk about the data they provide as well, and data contradicting a claim you want to make without any of your own seems to irritate you into just saying stuff.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
') You know I looked into them years ago, the real world battery life was the killer of them, like with all EV. Ugly little pus boxes, thankfully though I saw through to BS.
I call mine a "podcar". It annoys the wife. Real world battery life is still going strong and being used every day. There are 3 other Leafs on the street as well, but all of them are newer than mine, but one was a trade in from an older one like mine because...as with mine....it was a good cage.

It isn't a surprise that looks are more important to you than real world durability, reliability, and lack of maintenance. Shallow people are just...shallow.
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 25 Aug 2024, 22:44:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '
')Adam do you flare off the gas?? If so, you could turn that energy into money>
PEACE


None. Associated natural gas is worth money, the only natural gas I've flared in my career was on frack jobs on a shale wells where we used a CO2 kicker, when you did that the flowback contained too much CO2 to put through a sales meter. So you took samples, CO2 would gradually decrease as oil and natural flow strengthened, and when low enough of a % we would then put it back into the line.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 25 Aug 2024, 22:52:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')Adam can vouch for the scientists at the CSIRO :lol: :lol:

The ones I've worked with, sure. Plus CSIRO hired away some I worked with elsewhere. I recommended one to TOD for one of their national conferences once, when they asked for a real scientist who could provide an educated response to their PO cheerleading sessions at the conference. I had asked permission to go myself and been turned down by the boss, even if I paid to go myself on personal time. The TOD folks said he would generate too much CO2 flying in from Australia so they refused to even ask. Amusingly, the mods just about all flew in themselves.

They did like their echo chambers.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 25 Aug 2024, 23:01:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '
')Common sense says that 60 or 70 years ago when they first became aware of this depletion phenomena (King Hubbert) plans should have been drawn up to limit the extraction and use of it.


"Depletion" is just a description, nothing but physics in action, a natural consequence of fluid flow through porous media and accompanying decreasing pressure, as it removed faster than it can be replaced naturally. Happens in water wells too. It was being described by JP Lesley in 1886, because back then they had noticed this effect already, and used it to claim the oil age would end by the time strong young men were older. So that was a sort of peak oil claim, for somewhere in the early 1900's. So common sense..please...learn some history already...
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Peaking, a Theory of Rapid Transition

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 29 Aug 2024, 20:47:04

From Oilprice.com

Exxon Joins OPEC in Warning of Looming Oil Supply Crisis

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Exxon predicts a future oil shortage if investment in new production doesn't increase, despite forecasts of declining demand due to electric vehicles.
The company argues a rapid decline in production, especially from unconventional sources like shale, could lead to severe energy shortages and price hikes.

This is corporate speak for
"We make our money off of oil and warn that our profits will decline as availability of cheap oil declines."
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')OPEC has been warning about this for years. Various officials from the cartel have been sounding the alarm that insufficient investment in new oil supply would eventually turn into a future supply squeeze

So invest in it then OPEC, you're the MoneyBags making a fortune selling oil at $80 bbl. Or are you? When OPEC tossed out the old colonial powers and their "money" back in the sixties it was because their fields were hugely productive. Who needs foreign investment when you're pumping oil at 100:1 and 50:1. You don't need outside capital. Now they have blown their wad and are merely collecting the dregs from mature fields. To maintain their rate of production now they want some greater fool to pony up the money to expand into marginal areas.
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... risis.html
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