by AdamB » Fri 28 Jan 2022, 11:43:06
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Baduila', 'M')y calculations are based on the 2nd law. The 2nd law is always valid.
I agree with you, the 2nd Law is always valid. Your misinterpretation of its principles in a system you do not even partially understand is the problem.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Baduila', '
')So i must believe, the calculation is valid too.
I don't question your calculations, I almost never do that to theorists. I question every scintilla of your proper application to the system under discussion.
What happens to the temperature INSIDE THE OVEN when you insert a cold rock Baduilla? Does the oven using an external energy source mean that your thermodynamic problem is a closed system, or a open/dynamic one? Why does the temperature gradient EXIST in the first place? Are you familiar with heat generation through radioactive decay, and the principle forces that govern the geology and tectonic underpinnings of the very ground upon which you stand?
Do you understand that a bucket of cold water thrown on a stream of magma doesn't phase the operation and direction of the magma in the least, even if you could measure an infinitesimal change in surface temperature on 1 square inch of that surface?
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Baduilla', '
')You see, it it not sufficient to measure the reservoir temperature, the measurement must be done in the right way.
Please show the thermodynamic calculations (as you do seem to like them) for the amount of energy absorbed by the water as it is warmed by the thermal mass around it (thereby reducing the temperature of the formation). Then, account for the specific heat and thermal conductivity and mass of the rock (and accompanying fluids within the pore volume) making this possible. With the energy/mass relationship established, you can talk about 2 things, the energy content of the entire greater system of rock, and the energy content needed from that system to constantly warm up the water. Once you have that difference, then you can run the same calculation on the rock surrounding the specific formation, and figure out that difference. . Continue this process a few more steps and presto....you discover at the heart of it all...there is an oven pumping heat into the entire system making it possible. You will also discover things already known. Rock is a good insulator. There is a volume of water that sooner or later MIGHT change the specific formation temperature that would be discernable on a temperature log, and if you continue this exercise you will discover that this POSSIBLE change in temperature will not bother the ability to recover oil or natural gas in the least. Straight up, simple physics, figured out by the folks who wrote "Applied Petroleum Reservoir Engineering" B.C. Craft and M.F. Hawkins from Louisiana State University published by Prentice-Hall, Inc. in Englewood Cliffs NJ Copyrighted in 1959 First Edition, as you seem to like textbooks, and when you've got your physics right, you don't need the newest version of anything.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Baduilla', '
')The pity is, that the huge amounts of energy, consumed during oil production, can’t be measured directly.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."
Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
by Doly » Fri 28 Jan 2022, 14:43:48
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he pity is, that the huge amounts of energy, consumed during oil production, can’t be measured directly.
Surely the facilities extracting oil know how much energy they are using for oil extraction. The data may not be publicly available, but somebody is measuring it.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')epth matters in terms of the lifting energy required.
Sounds reasonable, and more in line with what I assumed was the main reason for oil extraction becoming more energy intensive. Though, I also understand that the natural pressure in the reservoir, that has to do with temperature, also has something to do with it. But I know little about the details of oil extraction myself, so I'm not going to argue the point.
Since you agree that oil is getting harder to extract, at some point the energy needed to extract the oil would be less than the energy provided by the oil, which is what EROEI tries to measure. It may still be technically possible to extract the oil, but pointless for the purpose of using oil as an energy source. Do you agree so far?
by JuanP » Fri 28 Jan 2022, 16:23:04
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '
')Since you agree that oil is getting harder to extract, at some point the energy needed to extract the oil would be less than the energy provided by the oil, which is what EROEI tries to measure. It may still be technically possible to extract the oil, but pointless for the purpose of using oil as an energy source. Do you agree so far?
Not necessarily. It would depend on what energy source you use to extract the oil and the economics of the project. If your energy source is natural gas that would otherwise be flared or renewable energy that could not be used otherwise, stored, or distributed, then it would "make sense" to continue extracting that oil for as long as it remained economically profitable, even if you only get out a fraction of the energy invested in extracting it. It sucks, particularly for the environment, but it's true. I expect this to happen.
"Human stupidity has no limits" JuanP
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by AdamB » Fri 28 Jan 2022, 17:09:07
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')epth matters in terms of the lifting energy required.
Sounds reasonable, and more in line with what I assumed was the main reason for oil extraction becoming more energy intensive. Though, I also understand that the natural pressure in the reservoir, that has to do with temperature, also has something to do with it. But I know little about the details of oil extraction myself, so I'm not going to argue the point.
Temperature factors into just about every multi-dimensional chart used in common reservoir steady state equations. But not in pore volume compressibility versus overburden pressure. Slightly in formation volume factor, but that is because you are moving from in-situ conditions to standard conditions, temperature matters there. Static reservoir temperature is very important to insitu conditions related to bubble point calculations, again in-situ. Solubility of natural gas in water changes with temperature. Water compressibility is effected by in-situ condition.
Certainly temperature is accounted for all over the place. But for original in-situ conditions....because it doesn't change enough to matter across the life of a reservoir.
Pressure however, under saturated or saturated oil, permeability, porosity, now we're talking!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '
')Since you agree that oil is getting harder to extract, at some point the energy needed to extract the oil would be less than the energy provided by the oil, which is what EROEI tries to measure.
I am aware of how EROEI is measured. And how I can use 10,000 BTUs of electricity to make 5,000 BTUs of oil and make money on it while having an EROEI<1.
Have you figured out a way around this inconvenient fact yet?
I can run a rig on diesel, natural gas or electricity. And that electricity coming from the local grid can be derived from solar, wind, nukes, biogas, hydro, etc etc.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '
') It may still be technically possible to extract the oil, but pointless for the purpose of using oil as an energy source. Do you agree so far?
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."
Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
Take care of the second law.