[GHung]

I'm not sure how useful these apples/oranges comparisons are. A nuclear plant requires a large crew 24/7/365. The medium to large solar installations in my area are monitored remotely and require no on-site personnel. They get cleaned and inspected once or twice a year. I spoke to a couple of guys at a site on a friend's farm last spring and that's all they do; contract to clean and inspect large solar arrays.

To run at near full capacity, nuke plants need complex load balancing schemes or (wait for it) some form of storage like pumped hydro. PV plants can use the same storage. Electrons don't care how they are produced or where they get parked to wait for their chance to do work.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', 'I')'m not sure how useful these apples/oranges comparisons are. A nuclear plant requires a large crew 24/7/365. The medium to large solar installations in my area are monitored remotely and require no on-site personnel. They get cleaned and inspected once or twice a year. I spoke to a couple of guys at a site on a friend's farm last spring and that's all they do; contract to clean and inspect large solar arrays.

To run at near full capacity, nuke plants need complex load balancing schemes or (wait for it) some form of storage like pumped hydro. PV plants can use the same storage. Electrons don't care how they are produced or where they get parked to wait for their chance to do work.

[Yonnipun]

I wonder why even talk about nuclear when there is no solution to the nuclear waste problem.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Yonnipun', 'I') wonder why even talk about nuclear when there is no solution to the nuclear waste problem.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', 'I')'m not sure how useful these apples/oranges comparisons are. A nuclear plant requires a large crew 24/7/365. The medium to large solar installations in my area are monitored remotely and require no on-site personnel. They get cleaned and inspected once or twice a year. I spoke to a couple of guys at a site on a friend's farm last spring and that's all they do; contract to clean and inspect large solar arrays.

To run at near full capacity, nuke plants need complex load balancing schemes or (wait for it) some form of storage like pumped hydro. PV plants can use the same storage. Electrons don't care how they are produced or where they get parked to wait for their chance to do work.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', ' ')Nuclear ... has fuel costs, higher decommissioning costs, etc. That is why you can't look at purchase prices alone. Levelized costs are better, but even then apples/oranges comparisons are difficult because of the non dispatchable nature of solar/wind.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', 'I')'m not sure how useful these apples/oranges comparisons are. A nuclear plant requires a large crew 24/7/365. The medium to large solar installations in my area are monitored remotely and require no on-site personnel. They get cleaned and inspected once or twice a year. I spoke to a couple of guys at a site on a friend's farm last spring and that's all they do; contract to clean and inspect large solar arrays.

To run at near full capacity, nuke plants need complex load balancing schemes or (wait for it) some form of storage like pumped hydro. PV plants can use the same storage. Electrons don't care how they are produced or where they get parked to wait for their chance to do work.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', 'I')'m not sure how useful these apples/oranges comparisons are. A nuclear plant requires a large crew 24/7/365. The medium to large solar installations in my area are monitored remotely and require no on-site personnel. They get cleaned and inspected once or twice a year. I spoke to a couple of guys at a site on a friend's farm last spring and that's all they do; contract to clean and inspect large solar arrays.

To run at near full capacity, nuke plants need complex load balancing schemes or (wait for it) some form of storage like pumped hydro. PV plants can use the same storage. Electrons don't care how they are produced or where they get parked to wait for their chance to do work.

[ROCKMAN]

P – “The best way to go would be to use as much solar/wind/hydro as you can, but if need someing to supplement the grid when the wind don't blow and the sun isn't shining, consider using nuclear.”. Exactly. Once again use Texas as a model. Thanks to our booming population and economy our electricity consumption has increased 27% in just the last 10 years. A big reason why we’re the largest consuming state with 2X as much as #2 FL.

And we use our nukes and wind power to cover the gap. And now we’re having solar increasing too. And maybe even short term grid storage if the E.ON pilot project proves commercial. Which is very fortunate since without them we would have built more NG and coal fired plants…guaranteed.

[Navigator 1122]

???

Assessment of the Extra Capacity Required of Alternative Energy Electrical Power Systems to Completely Replace Fossil Fuels
Report Serial Number: 42/2021
ISBN number: ISBN 978-952-217-414-7
https://tupa.gtk.fi/raportti/arkisto/42_2021.pdf

[Newfie]

Navigator,

Welcome aboard and to the discussions.

Sorry I missed welcoming you in your initial post.

This concluding paragraph of the opening summary is very much in line with what my thing has become in recent years.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')In conclusion, this report suggests that replacing the existing fossil fuel powered system (oil, gas, and coal), using renewable technologies, such as solar panels or wind turbines, will not be possible for the entire global human population. There is simply just not enough time, nor resources to do this by the current target set by the World’s most influential nations. What may be required, therefore, is a significant reduction of societal demand for all resources, of all kinds. This implies a very different social contract and a radically different system of governance to what is in place today. Inevitably, this leads to the conclusion that the existing renewable energy sectors and the EV technology systems are merely steppingstones to something else, rather than the final solution. It is recommended that some thought be given to this and what that something else might be.

[theluckycountry]

this report suggests that replacing the existing fossil fuel powered system... will not be possible for the entire global human population... What may be required, therefore, is a significant reduction of societal demand for all resources, of all kinds. This implies a very different social contract and a radically different system of governance to what is in place today.

In other words
The corona virus shutdowns of society
And a one world government.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n conclusion, this report suggests that replacing the existing fossil fuel powered system (oil, gas, and coal), using renewable technologies, such as solar panels or wind turbines, will not be possible for the entire global human population. There is simply just not enough time, nor resources to do this by the current target set by the World’s most influential nations. What may be required, therefore, is a significant reduction of societal demand for all resources, of all kinds. This implies a very different social contract and a radically different system of governance to what is in place today. Inevitably, this leads to the conclusion that the existing renewable energy sectors and the EV technology systems are merely steppingstones to something else, rather than the final solution. It is recommended that some thought be given to this and what that something else might be.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')The biggest mistake we make is looking at the future through the lens of the present. Say, thinking that since the average rich-worlder today drives 15,000 miles a year to choose from 57 varieties of deodorant that the success or failure of our society is gauged by the preservation if not increase of such statistics.

The post-fossil world will be as different from today as today is from the pre-fossil world: that is my trope. I hope we can ride the fossils down to a soft, renewable landing. I would be happy to know that my great grandkids (not to mention myself) will have lights and some radio, if not refrigeration.

[Gmark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Mustard', 'W')ind energy fails because Betz's law. Engines only work by damaging themselves. Engines require external energy or pressure to work, and wind is uncompressed, so it can never work.

Pretend a gas turbine has a eroi of 10 at 30x pressure. A wind turbine has a eroi of 1:3 because it's doing the same thing without pressure. If you accept fossil fuel eroi you must accept renewable eroi, because it's doing the same thing just worse.

That's why all the arguments for renewables are self defeating because your proposing the same thing but lower pressure. It's air pushing on air. The air pushing on the turbine is the same as the air causing friction. There is no pressure to rescue this relationship. In a gas turbine all the gas is pressurized to go in the same direction so no drag. In a wind turbine there's no pressure. It's air pushing on air.

Solar has the same problem. The very act of collecting solar energy is due to weakening the bonds that hold the panel together. The reason photosynthesis works in nature is that it doesn't actually matter. It's just nutrients (eg phosphate, nitrate) being supplied as external energy so their bond energy can be used. These nutrients form on their own non-deterministically, ie, you can't force their production.

The mass of fertilizer in a plant root system, about 10kg or 1% volume, is greater than the dry mass of a plant. The plant is merely a product of chemical bond energy transfer at a 10/1 loss to the original mass. It doesn't generate any energy, it consumes it from the chemical bonds of the surrounding area. Photosynthesis is merely a way to consume the provided energy.

Engines require a gradient to work. You can't just use disorganized natural energy to create energy. It's air pushing on air or electrons pushing on electrons. It has no structure and can't result in anything.

Solar panels break chemical bonds to form other ones and are therefore a perpetual motion machine

[theluckycountry]

All scientific mumbo jumbo aside, my roof is covered in renewable solar, built in China with cheap oil and coal, shipped across the ocean with cheap bunker fuel. What will happen in 25 years when they wear out, who knows? But I probably wont be around to see the manufacturing and supply chain that is "supposed" to run on renewables by then. I have yet to see a D9 earthmover running on anything other than diesel. Or an Aluminum plant on other than coal fired electricity. Solar panels incorporate a lot of Aluminum.

According to Alcoa, the world’s largest producer of aluminium, the best smelters use about 13 kilowatt hours (46.8 megajoules) of electrical energy to produce one kilogram of aluminium; the worldwide average is closer to 15 kWh/kg (54 MJ/kg).
http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2011/07/15/ ... aluminium/

But that's just the intermediate step, there is the mining, refining, and latter fabrication and distribution to be factored in too.

Reserves of bauxite in China are depleting rapidly, opening up a massive new hunt for resources.
https://www.mining-technology.com/featu ... e-4171637/

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', 'A')
According to Alcoa, the world’s largest producer of aluminium, the best smelters use about 13 kilowatt hours (46.8 megajoules) of electrical energy to produce one kilogram of aluminium; the worldwide average is closer to 15 kWh/kg (54 MJ/kg).
http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2011/07/15/ ... aluminium/

[theluckycountry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
')
That is why many of the biggest aluminum smelters are in Quebec where hydro power cost just two cents per KWH.

[yellowcanoe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('theluckycountry', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '
')
That is why many of the biggest aluminum smelters are in Quebec where hydro power cost just two cents per KWH.