[PenultimateManStanding]

An organized, powerful State is what most people know to be protective. Safety in numbers. This is why 9-11 conspiracies don't move the masses. This is also why Gary Webb could suffer carreer assassination for trying to expose things that people don't want exposed. The implicit message to the top from the base is 'don't bother us with the details, just do what you have to do to keep us in the good times'. That's the mandate. When things get rocky up ahead, people will cling even more to the State. Socialist Parties will advance as people lose confidence in individual efficacy and turn to the collective strength.

[Heineken]

Why do you think that only socialist parties will advance in such a scenario, when history shows that fascist parties have an equally good shot? I think that, because of its capitalist roots, the trend of the U.S. is definitely religio-fascist, and that our progress in that direction will speed up dramatically in any severe peak-oil scenario. We're already well under way in the hands of the boy-emperor Bush.

A more likely outcome than some new monolithic party is a breakup of the U.S. into much smaller units based on geography rather than politics. This plausible idea has been well developed by Heinberg and Kunstler and others. I don't see how the U.S. can survive as a political entity on this continent, much less as a global empire, after PO.

My own response to the disintegration of the United States is to run for the hills or the deep woods.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'W')hy do you think that only socialist parties will advance in such a scenario, when history shows that fascist parties have an equally good shot?

[MacG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'S')ocialist Parties will advance as people lose confidence in individual efficacy and turn to the collective strength.

[MicroHydro]

Why is everyone speaking in the future tense? The strong states are here, almost everywhere, right now.

The only alternatives are anarchic failed states. The choices are Big Brother lands and the closely related Big Nanny lands or Kalashnikov culture Mad Max lands. Or have I overlooked a hidden libertarian paradise somewhere? I don't think so.

[I_Like_Plants]

In practice, there are no differences between a Socialist and a Fascist state. The nazis were officially socialist you know. And their best buddies were the "fascist" or "corporatist", Fascists in Italy.

[MacG]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MicroHydro', 'W')hy is everyone speaking in the future tense? The strong states are here, almost everywhere, right now.

The only alternatives are anarchic failed states. The choices are Big Brother lands and the closely related Big Nanny lands or Kalashnikov culture Mad Max lands. Or have I overlooked a hidden libertarian paradise somewhere? I don't think so.

[MicroHydro]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MicroHydro', 'W')hy is everyone speaking in the future tense? The strong states are here, almost everywhere, right now.

The only alternatives are anarchic failed states. The choices are Big Brother lands and the closely related Big Nanny lands or Kalashnikov culture Mad Max lands. Or have I overlooked a hidden libertarian paradise somewhere? I don't think so.

[cube]

I have a theory that ultimately people are more or less the same. What motivates them is what they believe to be is best for their own self interest. However their theory as to what may be best for them can be vastly different. With that said liberals, conservatives, libetarians, neo-conservatives.....they all aspire for the same goal....to look after their own self interest. A government can actually get away with quite a bit when it comes to trampling on individual rights so long as they can deliver prosperity. As much as I value freedom of speach, press, due process, and the pursuit of happiness I value 3 meals per day and enough gas to keep my car rolling even more so.

Take for example Irak. I bet those "Sodom Insane" days with those United Nations food rations and enough electricity to keep the lights on look pretty damn good right now.

Once PO hits the first nations to feel the pain will be the third world since they pay more for oil relative to their income. How will these governments control their restless populations? History has shown that no government, no matter how brutal and authoritive, can control the masses when it hits the "breaking point". I think OPEC will be an "interesting" place once even their oil runs out. Most of those governments are despotic regimes who stay in power buy bribing the masses with a welfare check paid by oil revenues.

There's a popular belief that dictatorships do not have to worry about public opinion. Nothing can be further then the truth. If that were the case then why do dictatorships invest so much in propaganda? All governments stay in power by convincing their populace that it is in their vested interest to keep the current system rather then overthrow it. Once PO hits it's going to be difficult for some governments to continue doind this.

[EnemyCombatant]

Depop!

[ubercrap]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'W')hy do you think that only socialist parties will advance in such a scenario, when history shows that fascist parties have an equally good shot?

[zed]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MicroHydro', '
')If I had Scandanavian connections, I would have moved to Iceland. It has the best post peak prospects of almost anyplace:

1) Monocultural, not prone to interethnic conflict
2) Excellect geothermal and hydroelectric resources
3) Intact fisheries
4) No enemies
5) Populaton 300,000

[k_semler]

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is agovernment big enough to take from you everything you have."
--Gerald R. Ford

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'I')n practice, there are no differences between a Socialist and a Fascist state. The nazis were officially socialist you know. And their best buddies were the "fascist" or "corporatist", Fascists in Italy.