[FLAMEOUT]

Natural gas under fire in the UK also.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13726 ... ate-change

Hydrogen as a replacement to methane being touted - where will this come from electrolysis using electricity ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... -time.html

The UK currently generates up to half of our electricity with Natural Gas - bit windy here today so lots of wind generation

https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?_k=xo2xsl

Cold dark years ahead - unless you live in China, India etc who seemingly could not care less.

[Newfie]

Good point. 2.5 billion people eager to close the Prosperoty Gap in just those 2 countries. Throw in Bangladesh and Pakistan and it closer to 4 billion, almost half the worlds population.

[JuanP]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'G')ood point. 2.5 billion people eager to close the Prosperoty Gap in just those 2 countries. Throw in Bangladesh and Pakistan and it closer to 4 billion, almost half the worlds population.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FLAMEOUT', 'N')atural gas under fire in the UK also.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13726 ... ate-change

Hydrogen as a replacement to methane being touted - where will this come from electrolysis using electricity ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... -time.html

The UK currently generates up to half of our electricity with Natural Gas - bit windy here today so lots of wind generation

https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?_k=xo2xsl

Cold dark years ahead - unless you live in China, India etc who seemingly could not care less.

[REAL Green]

“Gas and renewables combined hold the key to a faster energy transition”
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/20 ... ransition/
“Accelerated and strategic deployment of renewables and gas power can change the trajectory for climate change, enabling quick and substantive reductions in emissions, while in parallel continuing to advance the technologies for low or near zero-carbon power generation. This is according to the latest white paper release by GE, entitled Accelerated Growth of Renewables and Gas Power Can Rapidly Change the Trajectory on Climate Change. GE states that the power industry has a responsibility, and the technical capability to take significant steps to quickly reduce greenhouse gas emissions and help address climate change at scale. The solution for the power sector is not an either/or proposition between renewables and natural gas, but rather a multi-pronged approach to decarbonisation with renewables and natural gas power at its core.”

https://www.ge.com/content/dam/gepower/ ... -paper.pdf
“On a global scale, replacing coal with a combination of variable renewables and batteries plus dispatchable gas yields greater carbon reduction than renewables alone…Replacing the coal plant with a complementary mix of wind and solar plus natural gas, however, enables the wind and solar to provide zero-carbon energy whenever they are available, with combined cycle gas turbine plants making up any remaining energy needs. This results in approximately a 62–78 percent reduction in overall system CO2. Replacing the coal plant with a complementary mix of wind, solar, and 4-hour batteries, plus natural gas enables the wind and solar to provide zero-carbon energy for 35–50 percent of the time, with combined cycle gas turbine plants making up any remaining energy needs. This maximizes the energy from the renewables sources and results in approximately a 68–80 percent reduction in overall system CO2.”

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FLAMEOUT', 'N')atural gas under fire in the UK also.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13726 ... ate-change

Hydrogen as a replacement to methane being touted - where will this come from electrolysis using electricity ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... -time.html

The UK currently generates up to half of our electricity with Natural Gas - bit windy here today so lots of wind generation

https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?_k=xo2xsl

Cold dark years ahead - unless you live in China, India etc who seemingly could not care less.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'O')nce most electricity generation is via truly green energy, then EV's, not using as much NG, etc. will make far more sense. Until then, it's kind of a mess, though NG is better than coal, as far as CO2 production and pollution IF there aren't too many large leaks being ignored.

[Subjectivist]

As far as I can tell this is just one more "virtue signalling" stunt that is a major inconvenience for Joe6P while doing little or nothing for the environment.

I am willing to sacrifice quite a bit to be a good steward of creation, but doing something symbolic but ultimately ineffective does not count for beans.

[Pops]

CA is attempting to eliminate carbon by 2045, ICE cars by 2035. By every measure of the nominal thrust of this board you would think that would be a praiseworthy exercise.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')HE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:

SECTION 1. (a) This act shall be known as The 100 Percent Clean Energy Act of 2018.
(b) The Legislature finds and declares that the Public Utilities Commission, State Energy Resources Conservation and Development Commission, and State Air Resources Board should plan for 100 percent of total retail sales of electricity in California to come from eligible renewable energy resources and zero-carbon resources by December 31, 2045.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'C')A is attempting to eliminate carbon by 2045, ICE cars by 2035. By every measure of the nominal thrust of this board you would think that would be a praiseworthy exercise.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')HE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:

SECTION 1. (a) This act shall be known as The 100 Percent Clean Energy Act of 2018.
(b) The Legislature finds and declares that the Public Utilities Commission, State Energy Resources Conservation and Development Commission, and State Air Resources Board should plan for 100 percent of total retail sales of electricity in California to come from eligible renewable energy resources and zero-carbon resources by December 31, 2045.

[kublikhan]

CA's strategy seems to be to steam forward with blind hope and political mandates in lieu of informed planning. That has not worked out so well for them Pops. I think this natural gas ban is just another example.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ess than one month after California experienced rolling blackouts, Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti sent out this tweet urging his constituents to conserve power to avoid more potential outage. Many California officials, particularly Governor Gavin Newsom, brand the state as a leader in a variety of areas and take pride in lecturing others on how to best promote clean energy. While it’s true that California relies on clean energy more so than other states, it’s difficult to accept advice from a state that has accelerated renewable development absent any strategy to account for the sources’ current shortcomings.

California gets about a third of its electricity from renewables, which isn’t a bad thing in and of itself. However, with battery storage technology still in development, sources such as solar and wind cannot provide around-the-clock reliable energy. This becomes especially problematic when states like California are abandoning other energy sources in order to race towards its politically-driven targets of achieving 60 percent renewable electricity by 2030 and 100 percent by 2045.

To be fair, some of California’s recent energy troubles can be attributed to heatwaves, which have increased air conditioning demand, and wildfires, which have led some grid systems to experience failures. But those blaming the grid instability solely on these factors are being dishonest, as California has been dealing with energy-related issues prior to these recent developments thanks to its own policies.

Specifically, California’s blind adding of solar and wind facilities has led it to frequently produce massive amounts of energy during the day, and the state often has to get rid of excess production by selling it to other states at cheap prices. However, given that solar production drops off at nightfall, California is then forced to import electricity from other states to satisfy peak demands. The problem is that with current hot temperatures throughout the west, other states are experiencing higher demand for air conditioning as well and are less apt to export their electricity production to California. This reliance on other states would not be so necessary if California was not shutting down other types of power facilities and forcing utility companies to purchase lithium ion batteries that aren’t even online yet. It’s astonishing that the same government officials who demand that we “believe science” choose to pursue energy policies that blatantly disregard science.

To be clear, pursuing renewable energy development is good policy and forward-looking. However, when advanced blindly for the sake of political optics, energy grid complications are inevitable. Presently, current technology makes renewable power on its own insufficient, and these limitations are not overcome through aggressive mandates or politically-motivated decisions. Rather, we can lead a smoother transition to renewables with policies like an all-of-the-above energy approach. As opposed to a mandate driven approach, an all-of-the-above strategy will ensure continued grid stability and reduced emissions, all without the California-style blackouts in the meantime.

[Pops]

Informed planning is how we got to the point of mass extinction, Kub.

CA strategy is to mandate change away from what is causing the mass extinction and perhaps our own. Why you ask? Because citizens and especially corporations do not protect the commons without mandates. See my sig...

If you recall, CA political mandates helped drive CAFE standards. CA Title 24 single handedly established building energy conservation standards when there were none, likewise energy efficient appliances, air and water protection and on and on.

Every time there were howls of outrage and dire repercussions from the right. Your link to a Murdock rag and some conservative blogger are good examples. In other words, howls of protest at no longer having unlimited access to the commons.

And of course they have trouble getting the kinks out. Not surprising, when you cut against the grain and try to change a huge, integral part of the economy, it is hard—no matter how destructive. I seem to remember some guy, back when we were great, saying that we Americans choose to do things not because they are easy, but because they are hard.

.

[kublikhan]

You cannot mandate away reality Pops. Just because they passed a law to be 100% renewable by 2045 doesn't mean it will be so. If you don't like my earlier sources on some of the past planning failures how about listening to the evaluation of California's own relevant agencies on the problem:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')alifornia suffered its first rolling blackouts in nearly 20 years because energy planners didn’t take climate change into account and didn’t line up the right power sources to keep the lights on after sundown, according to a damning self-evaluation released Tuesday by three state agencies. But officials should have been prepared for the climate-driven extreme heat that caused electricity demand to soar and briefly left the nation’s largest state without sufficient power supplies, the state’s Energy Commission, Independent System Operator and Public Utilities Commission acknowledged in a preliminary “root cause analysis.”

State agencies failed to adequately plan for that type of heat event despite knowing how quickly the world is heating up, the report concluded. They also failed to direct electricity providers to buy sufficient power supplies to cover the evening hours when solar panels go offline. And they created complex energy market mechanisms that masked the inadequacies. “The combination of these factors was an extraordinary event. But it is our responsibility and intent to plan for such events, which are becoming increasingly common in a world rapidly being impacted by climate change,” wrote Independent System Operator President Elliot Mainzer, Public Utilities Commission President Marybel Batjer and Energy Commission Chair David Hochschild.

Careful planning to ensure adequate power supplies will become even more important as California phases out fossil fuels and moves toward 60% renewable energy by 2030 and 100% climate-friendly energy by 2045, as required by state law. “Our planning processes may have been a year or two off on when we needed to have the resources available,” said Ed Randolph, director of the Public Utilities Commission’s energy division. “We’ll absolutely need more steel in the ground.”

The root cause analysis also faults market mechanisms put in place by the Independent System Operator, a nonprofit corporation that oversees the power grid for most of the state. A program known as convergence bidding, in particular, is meant to help keep electricity prices steady but instead “masked tight supply conditions” during the August heat wave, the analysis concluded.

[Pops]

Kub, CA is building something entirely new, mostly on the cutting edge, do you think it should come off without a hitch? Of course a mandate doesn't make reality conform, however, demanding nothing is it's own mandate. And we have examples of that everywhere, don't we? How is that going?

CA needs storage and is proceeding with it's build out—
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')AISO approves hybrid storage policies as California preps to add 1.5 GW by 2022
Nov. 24, 2020
The system operator moved quickly to approve the proposal in light of the more than 1,500 MW of storage capacity expected to come online in California by the end of next year. This is part of around 3,300 MW of new procurement that the state is seeking to replace retiring fossil fuel plants by 2023.
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/caiso- ... of/589609/

[kublikhan]

Look at that date: Nov. 24, 2020. Why did it take so long to finally start moving on the storage front? Did it really take rolling blackouts for them to figure out that after the sun goes down solar panels don't generate electricity? If the storage technologies were not ready yet then just leave the old generation in place until it is. Don't just throw up solar panels with no storage or backup for when the sun goes down. Then at the same time tear down your existing power plants. You don't need to be on the cutting edge to figure this stuff out.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')uring the grid operator’s board meeting Monday, Berberich faulted the commission for failing to ensure adequate power capacity on hot summer evenings, when electricity from the state’s growing fleet of rooftop solar panels and sprawling solar farms rapidly drops to zero but demand for air conditioning remains high. It’s a challenge that will only intensify as California adds more solar panels and wind turbines to meet its targets of 60% renewable electricity by 2030 and 100% emissions-free power by 2045.

“For many years, we have pointed out to the [Public Utilities Commission] that there was inadequate power available during the net peak,” Berberich said, referring to the evening period when solar production dries up but cooling demand remains high. “The situation we are in could have been avoided.”

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'A')nd nukes in a heat wave have their own problems—
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he first nuclear power plants reduce their output
Because of the heat wave, several nuclear power plants have to reduce their electricity production. The transport of coal on the water is also restricted.
https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/sozia ... 20916.html

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', 'L')ook at that date: Nov. 24, 2020. Why did it take so long to finally start moving on the storage front? Did it really take rolling blackouts for them to figure out that after the sun goes down solar panels don't generate electricity? If the storage technologies were not ready yet then just leave the old generation in place until it is. Don't just throw up solar panels with no storage or backup for when the sun goes down. Then at the same time tear down your existing power plants. You don't need to be on the cutting edge to figure this stuff out.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'R')eally Pops is that the best you can do? Power plants in upland Germany which are effectively isolated to using mountain rivers have problems in a heatwave and we should throw away all their potential as a result?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'A')nd every one of those examples was designed in the 1960's-1970's and built in the 1970's-1980's and have been cranking out carbon free electricity for 40+ years.

[yellowcanoe]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')
A big part of the disconnect in the USA is the faction of the green movement that opposes all nuclear power no matter how safe or efficient due to overblown panic that comes with the word "radiation".