[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'M')ustang,

Living in temperate climates, at our population levels, is a modern luxury, that is not sustainable.

[Newfie]

Not arguing which becomes non-viable first, you may well be right regarding desert countries and water.

My comment was about heat in temperate climates. It takes a LOT of energy to heat NY City or Chicago or Toronto.

Ine can learn to conserve on many things; drive less, use LED lights, turn light off at night. But heat has limitations, you can only let it get so cold. And cold happens in winter without a lot of sun.

Sure ultra high efficiency houses can be built. We are not going to build new ultra high efficiency houses for 200 million, just in the USA.

The goal is, supposedly, to get to zero emissions. NO fossil fuels. Thats gonna be tough in those 3 cities and elsewhere. Maybe with nuclear.

[vtsnowedin]

Heat in Toronto, AC in Atlanta, two ends of the spectrum. Both can be provided off the electric grid with whatever energy source you choose. I would think that urban High rise buildings would tend to be efficient just from the ratio of floor space to walls and roof heat losers compared to single family suburban houses.
I'm already seeing very energy efficient houses being constructed with walls ten to twelve inches thick and heat exchangers recapturing heat from vented stale air.
My ancestors survived here in Vermont with fireplaces fed with hand chopped wood. Of course they wore wool inside in the winter.
Other then places like Hawaii with uniform year round temperatures I think the mid latitudes are the most livable with at least six months of comfortable temperatures followed by a few months of discomfort that is easily adapted to. Of course if you can summer in Vermont and winter in Atlanta you can have your cake and eat it to. I need to talk to the Atlanta daughter about getting a house with a mother-in law apartment for us to migrate to in the winter.

[REAL Green]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'H')eat in Toronto, AC in Atlanta, two ends of the spectrum. Both can be provided off the electric grid with whatever energy source you choose. I would think that urban High rise buildings would tend to be efficient just from the ratio of floor space to walls and roof heat losers compared to single family suburban houses. I'm already seeing very energy efficient houses being constructed with walls ten to twelve inches thick and heat exchangers recapturing heat from vented stale air.
My ancestors survived here in Vermont with fireplaces fed with hand chopped wood. Of course they wore wool inside in the winter.

[mustang19]

Vestas is sued for blade failures

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/articl ... -ohio-site

Manufacturers lied, everything about lifespan and eroi of blades is fake.

There is no way wind energy can work becuase it is 40% efficient. 60% of energy goes into deforming the blade. It can never hope to eroi for basic physical reasons.

Only flexible materials can be used, rigid turbines are an impossible task.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', 'V')estas is sued for blade failures

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/articl ... -ohio-site

Manufacturers lied, everything about lifespan and eroi of blades is fake.

There is no way wind energy can work becuase it is 40% efficient. 60% of energy goes into deforming the blade. It can never hope to eroi for basic physical reasons.

Only flexible materials can be used, rigid turbines are an impossible task.

[REAL Green]

This is a great look at EROI of various sources with an excellent explanation of EROI. I got this off the news section. I highly recommend reading the PDF with its well rounded analysis of a deeper EROI viewpoint.

"A summary of Weisbach’s EROI study, which is generally considered to be the most reliable."
https://festkoerper-kernphysik.de/Weiss ... eprint.pdf

"EROI of onshore wind power in northern Germany is ~16. It is worth noting that EROI will be different depending upon turbine design, where it is situated (I.e. wind speed) and its effective lifetime. An EROI of 16 implies an ECoE of 6.25% – which is marginal but still workable. The ability of wind power to support industrial civilisation depends largely on our ability to harness it without wasting exergy. That means minimising energy transitions, energy lost in storage and transmission, etc. That implies in my mind that we should avoid wasteful solutions like the hydrogen economy or battery electric cars and concentrate instead on direct use of the electrical and mechanical energy as it is produced. That means grid connected electric transport like trains and trams and industrial manufacturing powered by grid electric wind power. We need to adapt to intermittent energy, by having some functions that are capable of responding to supply. For example, heating and cooling can be switched off when electricity supply is low, if thermal inertia is built into the system. Transport can run more slowly if energy levels are lower. Manufacturing can postpone some functions when energy levels are low. This is how it will need to work. Labour productivity will be lower. EROI of light water nuclear reactors is estimated to be 75. This is superior to any fossil fuel power generation, with the possible exception of natural gas. But there is institutional inertia to the use of nuclear energy that may prove difficult to overcome. In China, where fewer such limitations exist, nuclear power is expanding rapidly."

[mustang19]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', 'V')estas is sued for blade failures

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/articl ... -ohio-site

Manufacturers lied, everything about lifespan and eroi of blades is fake.

There is no way wind energy can work becuase it is 40% efficient. 60% of energy goes into deforming the blade. It can never hope to eroi for basic physical reasons.

Only flexible materials can be used, rigid turbines are an impossible task.

[Peak_Yeast]

Re: Inverters are complicated.

Yes - some are complicated - others not so much.

FPGAs are not needed - I am sure someone is stupid enough to over engineer the inverter, but it is total overkill. The very simplest of grade of microprocessors (<2$ cost) is plentiful of power to control the power electronics - which again is not very complicated.

Some also has graphics displays - not needed. All you need is a 2$ wifi module or a 2$ USB interface. The ESP-32 for example would be plenty of cpu power and include communications.

There need to be no significant losses (in materials) in solar power over any amount of time when and if the products are matured.
It could easily be done if we gave it the effort. But yes it requires an effort that is not necessarily good in a market economy. Companies dont earn money on selling something that never break or is easily and cheaply repaired/renewed.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('REAL Green', 'T')his is a great look at EROI of various sources with an excellent explanation of EROI. I got this off the news section. I highly recommend reading the PDF with its well rounded analysis of a deeper EROI viewpoint.

"A summary of Weisbach’s EROI study, which is generally considered to be the most reliable."
https://festkoerper-kernphysik.de/Weiss ... eprint.pdf

"EROI of onshore wind power in northern Germany is ~16. It is worth noting that EROI will be different depending upon turbine design, where it is situated (I.e. wind speed) and its effective lifetime. An EROI of 16 implies an ECoE of 6.25% – which is marginal but still workable. The ability of wind power to support industrial civilisation depends largely on our ability to harness it without wasting exergy. That means minimising energy transitions, energy lost in storage and transmission, etc. That implies in my mind that we should avoid wasteful solutions like the hydrogen economy or battery electric cars and concentrate instead on direct use of the electrical and mechanical energy as it is produced. That means grid connected electric transport like trains and trams and industrial manufacturing powered by grid electric wind power. We need to adapt to intermittent energy, by having some functions that are capable of responding to supply. For example, heating and cooling can be switched off when electricity supply is low, if thermal inertia is built into the system. Transport can run more slowly if energy levels are lower. Manufacturing can postpone some functions when energy levels are low. This is how it will need to work. Labour productivity will be lower. EROI of light water nuclear reactors is estimated to be 75. This is superior to any fossil fuel power generation, with the possible exception of natural gas. But there is institutional inertia to the use of nuclear energy that may prove difficult to overcome. In China, where fewer such limitations exist, nuclear power is expanding rapidly."

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', 'V')estas is sued for blade failures

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/articl ... -ohio-site

Manufacturers lied, everything about lifespan and eroi of blades is fake.

There is no way wind energy can work becuase it is 40% efficient. 60% of energy goes into deforming the blade. It can never hope to eroi for basic physical reasons.

Only flexible materials can be used, rigid turbines are an impossible task.

[TomWayburn]

Assuming purveyors of wind and solar do accurate eMergy accounting in their respective sectors, I would like to compare these eMergy balances with the petroleum balance for the State of California. Perhaps renewable energy is subsidized by fossil fuels as I suspect ERoEI-star (ERoEI*) accounting might reveal. However, someday we shall have true renewable energy. That day has not yet come, I believe.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TomWayburn', 'A')ssuming purveyors of wind and solar do accurate eMergy accounting in their respective sectors, I would like to compare these eMergy balances with the petroleum balance for the State of California. Perhaps renewable energy is subsidized by fossil fuels as I suspect ERoEI-star (ERoEI*) accounting might reveal. However, someday we shall have true renewable energy. That day has not yet come, I believe.

[REAL Green]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', ' ')While wind and solar installations today are built with fossil fuels they don't have to be but in today's market they will continue to be built using fossil fuels...When we get enough capacity in a renewable based electric grid we could make that switch but that is a decade or two away. In the meantime we should not fret about where the energy comes from to build our renewables and just enjoy the fact that once built they work for years without any daily fossil fuel consumption.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('REAL Green', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', ' ')While wind and solar installations today are built with fossil fuels they don't have to be but in today's market they will continue to be built using fossil fuels...When we get enough capacity in a renewable based electric grid we could make that switch but that is a decade or two away. In the meantime we should not fret about where the energy comes from to build our renewables and just enjoy the fact that once built they work for years without any daily fossil fuel consumption.

[REAL Green]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', 'A')s if fossil fuels, are going away soon. Especially coal and natural gas.

[Newfie]

Thought some of you might find this article of interest.

Jimmy Cornell is a world renowned sailor and author.
Outreamer makes very fast and high quality catamarans.
This was an attempt to prove electric regeneration works.

Here is Jimmies explanation of the situation.

http://nauticmag.com/2020/12/07/electri ... _y38DiZbiM

[jawagord]

Texas wind turbines freezing up.

https://poweroutage.us/area/state/texas

ERCOT calls for rotating outages as extreme winter weather forces generating units offline

Almost 10,000 MW of generation lost due to sub-freezing conditions

AUSTIN, TX, Feb. 15, 2021 – The Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) entered emergency conditions and initiated rotating outages at 1:25 a.m. today.

About 10,500 MW of customer load was shed at the highest point. This is enough power to serve approximately two million homes.

Extreme weather conditions caused many generating units – across fuel types – to trip offline and become unavailable.

There is now over 30,000 MW of generation forced off the system.

"Every grid operator and every electric company is fighting to restore power right now," said ERCOT President and CEO Bill Magness.

Rotating outages will likely last throughout the morning and could be initiated until this weather emergency ends.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jawagord', 'T')exas wind turbines freezing up.

https://poweroutage.us/area/state/texas

ERCOT calls for rotating outages as extreme winter weather forces generating units offline

Almost 10,000 MW of generation lost due to sub-freezing conditions

AUSTIN, TX, Feb. 15, 2021 – The Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) entered emergency conditions and initiated rotating outages at 1:25 a.m. today.

About 10,500 MW of customer load was shed at the highest point. This is enough power to serve approximately two million homes.

Extreme weather conditions caused many generating units – across fuel types – to trip offline and become unavailable.

There is now over 30,000 MW of generation forced off the system.

"Every grid operator and every electric company is fighting to restore power right now," said ERCOT President and CEO Bill Magness.

Rotating outages will likely last throughout the morning and could be initiated until this weather emergency ends.

[OutcastPhilosopher]

This just goes to show the futility of it all.

Wind/Solar will never be a replacement for Fossil Fuels.