[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good day:

First, an apology. Thank you for putting up with my run on paragraphs, and my rusty English skills. I do apologize. The moderator is working with me to help me improve my skills. I will accept any and all instruction.

I spoke again with my husband about what I am posting here. He said that I should not have said that southern Missouri has poor soil. Secifically, the Ozark region has poor soil. Since the area is all hilly, there is little topsoil. The southeast region of Missouri has some very good farmland. Most river bottom areas are good farm land. I stand corrected.

Another factor that my husband said needs to be figured into the equation is the cost of farm land. We will survive because our farm is paid for. What will the cost of farm land be as things fall apart? If we had to purchase this farm today, we could not make a living and keep the farm, even if we both worked full time. My husband paid $300.00 per acre for the farm in 1971. The same land today would cost almost $2,000.00 per acre. In many areas the rise of subdivisions has sent farm land beyond the scope of any farming scheme.

The class we wish to attend is held in Strafford, Missouri. The man who designed the class is Len Pense. His Ozark farm is mostly clay and rock. He devised a system utilizing concrete blocks to build permanent raised beds. His raised bed system requires no power equipment, no hoeing, and no weeding. Mr. Pense uses only heirloom seeds. He uses an organic gardening system based on companion planting. I still have to talk my very traditional** husband into attending this class, and will let you know if we attend. I will also share what we learn.

Phebagirl

PS. Traditional. Row farming. Lots of chemicals. Tons of hoeing an tilling. Does not understand the concept of mulch. Traditional farming practices are hard to get away from. My husband has spend a life time reading farm journal, and Progressive Farmer. The break from chemicals came in 1991 after I threw a wild-eyed duck fit. (not pretty) He is changing, his heart is in the right place. But, it is difficult after farming in a conventional manner.

PSS. We are experimenting by raising our own beef with no corn!!
I have had to get on my hands and knees to beg for this one.. But, we are raising our steer by just turning him out on grass and letting him grow. This is a work in progress, and I will keep you informed.

[Ludi]

Phebagirl I haven't read this whole thread, but I wonder if you've read Joel Salatin's books, especially "You Can Farm." He runs a successful farm in Virginia, raising beef on grass, also pastured poultry and rabbits. He has many really good ideas about raising animals inexpensively and making good money from them by direct marketing.

[Pops]

You are right about the land up on the plateau, very gravelly ‘Keno’ soil I think its called- that is where it isn't just plain old ledge . We were very fortunate the soil here is relatively deep and has few rocks compared to even a ¼ mile away (my wife may have committed a felony to the top of my head if I hadn’t agreed to buy it because of poor soil - she fell in love with the old house). I believe this was once creek bottom which makes for the deeper soil.

We are from central Ca where it is only a matter of calling the ditch-tender to get irrigation so watching the fescue dry up and the alfalfa stop growing while the weeds take over is tough, the neighbor’s corn is shot. We did have a little sprinkle last week and the lower temps are very nice.

If you have some spoiled hay – especially haylage, try it on the garden. Raised beds are nice for warming early in the year and reducing compaction, but even our corn and melons that we planted in regular old rows got a great benefit from mulching. The main weed here is what locals call spiny pigweed (spiny amaranth) and you better be wearing some tough gloves if you are pulling it by hand. But if you get it mulched early it’s easy to keep the biggest part down. The mulch makes all the difference in water retention and cooling the soil too. We have had a pretty good garden though this was one of the driest springs on record here, 3rd in line after 2 during the dustbowl years in fact.

As far as double digging if you don’t add massive amounts of compost in the trench it’s a waste in my experience. The great thing about mulching is that every year you are making compost right in the row in addition to all the other benefits. If you are planting something for fall go ahead and mulch one row and do the others as usual – that one row should be all it takes to convince anyone it is the way to go.

I use our little (40hp) tractor with a subsioler to open up the tight ground here – though I can’t go too deep. I just pulled it over a couple of rows of squash and ran the tiller over lightly to plant some broccoli and such and the improvement in tilth with just one crop worth of mulch is amazing. I don’t build big raised beds and I kind of scoop out the middle to hold water - so they are basically two big high rows with a little higher than normal furrow between. Not a big deal but it keeps you from walking or driving on them and the close spacing helps with weeds, hot ground and using less water.

I just noticed what Ludi wrote and wanted to mention that I’ve seen several sites of direct-marketed grass fed beef and one also one of my Amish neighbors is raising organic eggs on contract with a distributor – I think he has 1,200 layers.

Anyway have a good day, I need to go water the garden - again.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', '
')
As far as double digging if you don’t add massive amounts of compost in the trench it’s a waste in my experience. The great thing about mulching is that every year you are making compost right in the row in addition to all the other benefits.

[julianj]

Phebagirl rocks!

Glad to have you on the forum, your expertise and open mind are valued.

Urban dorks like me know about concrete. Lotsa it round here. Dunno what it does or where it came from but it's our world.

Need to learn about this brown stuff down under my shoes PDQ.

cheers

Julian

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Phebagirl', ' ') The Northern portion of Missouri is mostly prairie. There is not a lot there to sustain a small farm.

[Ghog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ill Mollison (Permaculture guy) also thinks mulching is superior to making compost.

[holmes]

Southern Missouri is a gem.

[dunewalker]

Phebagirl wrote: "we really do not make what you could call a profit from the cow/calf operation. The cattle pay for themselves. That's about it. Some years we make enough to buy a newer piece of equipment, or do an upgrade. Most farm money goes back into farming."

From your description it seems that raising cattle is very hard work! If they do not provide even a partial a living for that effort, it would seem to me that your labor might be better spent doing gardening/truck farming & selling off the cattle???

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I') have to disagree with you here.

[retiredguy]

Hi Phebagirl,

Welcome to the group! It's great to have a working farmer post here.

I grew up in a rural farming community. My mother grew up on a dairy farm and most of her 11 siblings farmed or did farm during their lifetimes.

None used organic methods once chemicals were readily available and cheap. One downside to using chemicals that is not mentioned much is their effect on the farmers that use them. My mother and seven of her siblings have had cancer. She and four of her siblings died as a result. Three of my uncles, all farmers, died of a very rare, extremely lethal form of lung cancer.

That said, I do believe that the increased yields that have resulted from chemical usage is what has contributed to there being 6.5 billion humans on the planet. I share your concern that conversion to organic will mean a significant net decrease in the amount of food produced. The rest is simple math.

[WisJim]

I just started reading this thread, but felt I should comment. I know quite a few families in western Wisconsin and surrounding areas who have small farms, anywhere from less than 5 acres to over 500 acres, and make their living on the farm. Many of the smallest places are CSAs (Community Supported Agriculture), and the idea is that a person/family subscribes to a portion of the annual output of the farm or market garden. Every week, in season, you then get a box of produce that is your "share" of what they produced that week. I know of couples that provide summer produce to 20 to 50 families, and may also employe one or more interns or students to help them in the summer. They may also provide honey, maple sirup, grain for flour, etc., in addition to garden produce.

I know of quit a few small dairy operations that may provide full income to the family, and also some where one or more people also work off the farm.

One of the things that I notice with the small farms or market gardens is that they are "organic" or close to it. They are managed with the intention of being as sustainable as possible, and that often means that in the early years of converting to "organic" they may need to add mineral soil supplements and lots of green manure crops, etc., to build up the soil health. After thngs are off to a good start, though, the manure, compost, and green cover crops that are produced on the farm do most of the job of maintianing and improving the soil, without the need for any chemical fertilizers, or chemical pest control.

Jim

[retiredguy]

Wisjim,

Thanks for jogging my memory. We have a few of these coops in my part of the state as well, but I'm curious as to the how they work economically. When I was working, one of my colleagues received his veggies from a coop in the manner you describe. However, the coop went bust. Don't know if it was poor management or what happened.

Also, every farmer's market around here is well-represented by Hmong farmers. They seem to persist year after year.

Just curious as to what type of business model these enterprises use and how scalable it is.

[Bandidoz]

Wow! What a fantastic insight into the realities that face us.

Pheba - have you come across Permaculture at all? There is also a new DVD called "Peak Oil, Imposed by Nature" that may be worth trying:
http://www.postcarbon.org/node/404

[oowolf]

Forget about converting the masses. Concentrate on self-sufficiency for your family. The masses are in pathological denial--or what Catton (in OVERSHOOT) called "redundancy anxiety". Numerous crises are likely to develop this winter=Oil Shock, bird flu..and the financial/economic situation is very perilous. You've come to the right site. There are many intelligent professionals in all fields--even authors, plus some paranoid spooks.

Donate your copies of EOS to the library-I guarantee you they will be loaned out constantly. There is a swelling undercurrent of awareness.

my 2cents.

[WisJim]

Here is a site about CSAs in the Minneapolis area:http://www.landstewardshipproject.org/csa.html
Here's a link to one of the CSAs that I personally know. http://members.localnet.com/~bhftrust/
They have been doing this for 10 years, and as far as I know, neither of the folks work off the farm, except that he does have a portable sawmill and saws lumber for people in the area, and he used to do some tree planting in the spring before their gardening got busy.

I see more and more businesses like this, especially around the larger urban areas. Around me, many of them make biweekly drives of 50 to 75 miles to Minneapolis-St Paul area to deliver produce.

I feel that the best thing, if you can do it, is to grow as much of your own food as possible. If you can't, then make a connection to the people providing most of your food, and find out where it comes from and how it is produced. Many CSAs encourage participation by their members with volunteer work days, potlucks, picnics, and open houses.

I need to go pick cucumbers, peppers, tomatoes, apricots, carrots, and help harvest our year's supply of garlic and onions. Feels good to know that the root cellar will be well stocked, and the freezer (run off the PVs and wind generator) will be full of berries and juices.

Jim

[retiredguy]

Just wondering how increasing gasoline prices are going to affect their profits with all that driving.

Canning time for me, too. Beans, peppers and tomatoes on the agenda this week.

[small_steps]

Here are some more links to consider -

http://organicvalley.coop/ - they have been expanding the past few years

http://www.mosaorganic.org/asoclink.html - see how other small farmers are making it work.

http://www.mosesorganic.org/

Question - Which job is worse - shovelling shit, or working in the mow (small bale)? I didn't (don't) like shit, but mowing in haying weather, in a stuffy barn, dragging 70 lb bales. That will make you sleep damned good at night.

Most farmers in SW wisc have at least one of the couple to work off farm for health benefits - Is this similar for you and your area? I tend to think the farmers will continue to use the petroleum that they (you) need. Relative to total consumption, you are nearly a nonfactor. But what you produce is beyond vital ---->> farming will continue.


Seriously, get those closest to you (friends, family, close neighbors) to understand the challenges that we face, it will snowball from there (hopefully in the correct direction). And the word is starting to get out, you see more and more info about this is entering the public domain, not just behind closed doors and "conspirousy" sites anymore. And there IS action being undertaken at numerous levels in the corporate and governmental world. (easy on the cynicism - some in those positions understand what is at stake) There are the questions of "how much of a problem do we have?", "how can this be resolved?", "Can this be resolved?" and perhaps the most difficult question of "how do we break the news?" What are our reactions going to be when the future that we have hoped and dreamed for become more difficult / nearly impossible to achieve?

[WisJim]

We were down at LaFarge last Saturday (July 30th) for Organic Valley's Country Fair. Had a good time and got to tour their new headquarters building--twice the floor space that they had previously used, and half the utility bills. It was built with saving resources and energy in mind, and although it isn't quite what I might have done, it was encouraging to see what their priorities were.

As it happened, my youngest son was near Syracuse NY that weekend visiting a friend at her family's farm, and they sell their organic milk through Organic Valley--and they have 4.8kw of grid tied PVs and are considering a wind generator.

Not sure how applicable this is to this thread but I thought it interesting.

Jim

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good day to all:
First, thanks so much for all of the responses to my post.
Second, and I need to do this before my husband has a total hissy fit.;
I need to amend some information that I posted. I was wrong again. If being wrong makes a person humble, I should be filled with humility.

Some clover does die off, but some can live forever if it is properly managed.
Red clover is prone to disease and only lives a few years. Red clover needs to be reseeded.

White clover can go on forever if you manage it well. White clover needs fertilizer (potash and phosphate), and can not be cropped to hard.
Quite by accident we discovered something interesting about white clover.

My husband and I love wildlife. I especially love the Eastern Box Turtle. The box turtle is becoming rare in Missouri because breeding age adults are constantly being hit by cars in the spring of the year. They cross the road seeking a mate and are wiped out.

Unfortunately, when hay is mown, the mower will chop up any box turtle that is unfortunate enough to be in the field.
A few years ago my husband ran over a rare flat backed turtle. he was devastated. He immediately came home and raised the blades on the mower a scant inch.

Something wonderful happened. When he raised the mower just that small amount, the blades skimmed right over the fattest turtle with no harm done.

The total quantity of hay baled was reduced, but the clover was not as harshly cut back. The clover, especially the white clover, bounced back, and was able to make a second full crop. The white clover also seeded better than it had in previous years. Nature always has something to teach us.

I am purchasing the film Peak Oil, Imposed by Nature today. I am very excited about it.

I am going to donate a copy of my EOS to the library, but only if they can add it. Our library system is kind of weird. Our small town library is connected to the larger system in the big city. The down side of this connection is that our small library can only add items to the system that are already in the computer! My small town library will be unable to add EOS to their system.

I will have to go to the large library. We shall see what happens when the films get here.

I have even advertised to show the film EOS for free to any group who wants to see it. I was on our public radio station just this week stating that I would show the film. 1 taker so far.

Gasoline just jumped 20 cents in 24 hours in our big city. We shall see how interest peaks.

My husband is a traditional farmer. There is a social cohesion among farmers. Going an organic route is difficult. Change is difficult. My farmer has made gigantic changes since 1991.

The changes have not come easy. Everything is a work in progress.
Like the experience with the box turtles and the white clover. We are getting there, but the process is a slow learning one.

What bothers me is this uneasy feeling that we do not have a lot of time.

Another event that has taught us is the 22 acres of warm season grass. The native Missouri Gamma grass is amazing. I have described the grass in a separate post.

Prior to meeting me my husband would spray a petroleum based herbicide on the grass. he did this because as a traditional farmer it was what he was used to doing.
He receives a Missouri native grass newsletter. The newsletter supports controlled burn to control weeds in plots of native grass. The controlled burn is a natural method to control weeds.

We have been doing controlled burn since 1995. The burn actually works ten times better!!! than peteroleum based herbices. And, it's almost totally free!!.

Unfortunately the controlled burn that we were doing was displacing wildlife that was nesting in the plot.

The following year we changed the time of year we burned. We switched to early March, prior to most nesting of birds.

The year after that we learned about patchwork burn. We only burned a portion of the 22 acres each year. We did a pattern like a checkerboard as much as possible. (fire is hard to control)

The pathwork burn allowed animals to escape to another unburned part of the warm season grass.

As you can see the learning process is a slow one. But wow, when you succeed, there is no feeling quite like it.

I am still planning on attending the course on biointensive as soon as I can talk my traditional husband into it. Will keep you posted.

Thanks again for all of the support, correction and information. I deeply appreciate it.

Pheba from the farm.