[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')he reasons I suggested nationalization.

Moving from the current AC system to a DC system will require planning on a national level. And will require much coordination and cooperation between various private entities in numerous states. It’s not quite like the interstate highway system that can be done state by state. It’s more like changing the gage of the railroads from standard gate to wide. If it were Just a matter of maintenance then I would agree.

Second is that it will require a large and expensive project funded by the federal government. Federal spending requires federal oversight.

The project makes the most sense if done in conjunction with large scale renewable generation facilities. Wind, PV, and solar thermal collection. It also requires the construction of storage facilities. There are advantages with just converting the existing system but the planning should be to incorporate Increased renewable generation and storage. The generation will likely be in the SW. Storage closer to the end users. Not sure what the storage would look like; some kind of compressed gas or perhaps thermal heating in super insulated containers. The states are not equipped to handle projects on this scale that work across state lines.

But this is a bit nit picking. Don’t really care how it gets done. We can realize insignificant efficiency increase. If Capitalism was allowed to work it should be embracing these upgrades. That it is not working means something is broken in the economic system. If we can’t fix it within Capitalisim then use something different.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'C')8,

I don’t know that you are missing much. I think the main deferents are capital, folks want quarterly earnings, they are not interested in long term capital investments.

HVDC has a sufficient history to demonstrate its value. It’s been used in some very hostile Environments including undersea cables.

25 years ago I worked on a 60hz to 25hz conversion plant. It was basically a 60hz to DC converted married to a DC to 25hz inverter. It is still working today. Built by ASEA. It was providing propulsion to a section of rail lines so it was not a small unit.

The psychological objections can be overcome by public education. And there will be those holdouts you just have to buy out or do eminent domain.

If we were to take on a national scale project there would be enough manufacturing to Build the manufacturing base. Hell, we don’t have the manufacturing base for the old style transformers.

Personally I would nationalize the grid. Take it away from the generators. It’s a shared asset paid for by the people that they are ruining through neglect. Then make the generators pay to use the system. Threat it like an interstate highway.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '
')Fair enough, I was born in Toledo and grew up in Michigan. During the 70's and early 80's the Public Utilities Commissions in both states did a very good job of enforcing regulations but that is, or at least was a state level regulatory agency. If that authority is moved to the federal level because the grid crosses state lines then regulatory enforcement should be uniform, and hopefully run by professional bureaucracy based on sound engineering recommendations.

[Newfie]

VT,

This reminds me of my trip down the St Lawrence. I did not recall see many of any transmission lines across the river EXCEPT in one place. There were several, I forget the count, something like 7 lines of various voltages. And it was not near and orderly but a real hodge lodge mess with lines on the West side crossing over and under other lines to get to the East side. I remember thinking “If the right side falls half of America will be dark.” Probably an exaggeration but still some merit.

I guess that none of the proposed routes reused existing ROW for any significant distance. Maybe that tells you something about how hard it is to take any transmission lines out of service for prolonged periods. It also should say something about how reliant we are on those lines.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'V')T,

This reminds me of my trip down the St Lawrence. I did not recall see many of any transmission lines across the river EXCEPT in one place. There were several, I forget the count, something like 7 lines of various voltages. And it was not near and orderly but a real hodge lodge mess with lines on the West side crossing over and under other lines to get to the East side. I remember thinking “If the right side falls half of America will be dark.” Probably an exaggeration but still some merit.

I guess that none of the proposed routes reused existing ROW for any significant distance. Maybe that tells you something about how hard it is to take any transmission lines out of service for prolonged periods. It also should say something about how reliant we are on those lines.

[Newfie]

Someone was asking about the difficulties to these build outs. It soundsmm NK like this was a good example.

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'G')o back to just California for a moment.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')In 2017, California reported a total of 24,331 GWh in solar electricity generation, approximately 11.79% of all electricity produced. This represented 44.4% of the state's non-hydro renewable energy generation.[2] At the end of 2017, California had a total installed solar capacity of 11,229.9 MW, making it the highest solar power generating state in the nation.[3] SEIA currently estimates that California's solar capacity powers 4,885,000 homes in the state, and employs 100,050.

It is estimated that the state will add an additional 13,670 MW of capacity over a period between 2017 and 2021.

[Subjectivist]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('C8', 'I') read up on HVDC, Wiki seems to list the main disadvantages as reliability, costs, complexity, and the fact that the tech is still being developed so spare parts won't be standardized. It seems to be the basis of this "smart grid" idea"? So, these disadvantages I read about don't seem too big as far as mounting a NIMBY battle. What am I missing? Are there additional fears making the rumor mill such as cancer causing fields, endangered species, etc.?
And how founded are these concerns?

[REAL Green]

“Solar Windows Will Soon Become A Commercial Reality”
https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy ... ality.html

“Engineers have developed a semi-transparent solar cell that will allow our windows to double up as solar panels that can transform both our architecture and energy production. Solar windows are exactly what they sound like: Transparent windows that are capable of absorbing sunlight and turning it into useful electricity. Instead of the standard silicon--which is deep blue and completely opaque--solar windows use perovskite solar cells (PSCs) to harvest electricity like most conventional solar panels. Indeed, just two square meters (around 22 square feet) of the next-gen PSCs tinted to the same degree as current glazed commercial windows would be enough to generate as much electricity as a standard solar panel--somewhere in the region of 140 watts per meter…Perovskites are a family of crystals named after Russian geologist Leo Perovski, “perovskites.” They share a set of characteristics that make them potential building blocks for solar cells: high superconductivity, magnetoresistance, and ferroelectricity. Perovskite thin-film PV panels can absorb light from a wider variety of wave-lengths, producing more electricity from the same solar intensity…But perhaps more significant is that the organization has been able to boost the longevity of Perovskite solar cells by altering their chemical composition to overcome light-induced phase-segregation-- a process through which the alloys that make up the solar cells break down when exposed to continuous light. The great news: Scientists see perovskite solar cells eventually attaining an efficiency of about 40%. In other words, future solar cells could be up to 50% more powerful than the best models currently available.”

[mustang19]

I dont know if this has been said but wind and solar dont actually... work.

Say steel costs 1mwh per ton, and glass costs 100x more. A 40 ton 1gwh per year turbine costs 5gwh.

Wyoming has 1% of wind capacity and a landfill with 1000 blades. Say there are 25k active turbines and construction peaked in 2012, so they are 8 years old. That's 100k dead blades in the us and 12k per year. The blades only last two years.

The high eroi estimates for wind assume blades are long lived, but we know from landfills they arent. And solar is hopeless. Solar has about the same glass per watt as wind. A lot of it is silicon and fragile stuff that doesnt easily recycle.

The Columbia river transports 16m tons of sediment per year. If you need to drive a truck 10 gallons to replace each ton of that then 16twh is lost just restoring soil lost to erosion. And since diesel is 20% of oil that's 90twh of crude oil.

The state of Washington produces 90twh from hydroelectricity, however the losses from erosion mean it's a losing proposition unless oil is available.

Since peak oil in February, Washington is debating to remove several dams. And here is the graph of wind prices.





Real oil prices.

Since 2000, wind prices have simply tracked oil. Prices doubled 2000-07 for both. So there doesnt seem to be even a monetary way that wind would replace natural gas, oil etc.



Polysilicon follows the same pattern, for solar.

None of the modern renewables work, they depend on oil.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', 'I') dont know if this has been said but wind and solar dont actually... work.

[mustang19]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', 'I') dont know if this has been said but wind and solar dont actually... work.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', 'I') dont know if this has been said but wind and solar dont actually... work. The blades only last two years.

...

The high eroi estimates for wind assume blades are long lived, but we know from landfills they arent.

[mustang19]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', 'I') dont know if this has been said but wind and solar dont actually... work. The blades only last two years.

...

The high eroi estimates for wind assume blades are long lived, but we know from landfills they arent.

[Tanada]

We know Wind and Solar are inadequate as solutions for our energy demands. People dispute this, but the studies show it over and over again.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'W')e know Wind and Solar are inadequate as solutions for our energy demands. People dispute this, but the studies show it over and over again.

[mustang19]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'W')e know Wind and Solar are inadequate as solutions for our energy demands. People dispute this, but the studies show it over and over again.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'W')e know Wind and Solar are inadequate as solutions for our energy demands. People dispute this, but the studies show it over and over again.

[mustang19]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'W')e know Wind and Solar are inadequate as solutions for our energy demands. People dispute this, but the studies show it over and over again.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mustang19', '
')I appreciate your concerns but in any case, solar is already used.