[REAL Green]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')Transmission line capacity was not adequate after installations last year.

[vtsnowedin]

By easily solved I mean it is just construction work that can be done with current technologies. No need to invent anything new. The Right of Ways in most cases already exist and NIMBYism can be easily fixed by turning their lights out.
A new line out to an offshore project is of course bigger but nothing new or more difficult then ones years old. Of course a lot of the existing grid does need upgrading just from it's age and changing use patterns but that is not a fault caused by renewables. I see millions of plug in EVs out there in the not too distant future that will act as energy sinks for daytime solar as long as they are plugged in where ever they are parked in the daytime. This and battery walls will go a long way towards solving the intermittency problem of both solar and wind.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')Transmission line capacity was not adequate after installations last year.

[REAL Green]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')Transmission line capacity was not adequate after installations last year.

[vtsnowedin]

Again it is just work that needed doing and needed to be done anyway due to the age of the existing grid and the deferred maintenance that has been the practice of the utilities. Just get on with the job.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('REAL Green', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')Transmission line capacity was not adequate after installations last year.

[vtsnowedin]

Yes HVDC lines have ROW and NIMBY problems. New Hampshire has fought over bring Hydo Quebec power through the state to Massachusetts for years even though there is already one such line. For wind and solar though it is easier as all you have to do is get to the nearest public road that has poles down it and then upgrade the poles and lines. I see wind farm power brought down from the windmills on a triple cable on top of regular (a bit tall) wood poles down to an upgraded substation to feed it into the grid. Passing drivers don't even notice the line is there.
My local utility just rehabbed and upgraded the local substation to the tune of three million dollars. That work was the first in about thirty years and past due but at least they are getting to it instead of whining about how hard it is to do.

[vtsnowedin]

The government has had the power of eminent domain (The power to seize property for public use) sense the adoption of the Constitution which makes clear the owners have to be fairly compensated. It really came into use in the eighteen hundreds as they were building railroads and telegraph lines through the already built up areas of the East and again in the 1950s and 60s as they built the Interstate highway system.
Some property owners always feel aggrieved but without it nothing in transportation or utilities would get completed.

[REAL Green]

Big is not always better:

“Why it’s short-sighted to do centralized planning in a decentralizing electricity grid”
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/20 ... city-grid/

“A report published by the Institute for Local Self-Reliance in 2016 and re-released in 2019 reveals the data that undercuts the persistent myth of big being better, particularly because the point of grid interconnection and proximity to load matter. The following chart from the report, “Wind Economies of Scale,” compares the levelized cost of wind power projects at different scales (based on 2011-2015 project data). Most projects larger than 5 megawatts will interconnect to the transmission system and compete with other wholesale producers. In this market, greater size does matter. But at the smallest scale, where size would appear as a disadvantage, projects can receive higher prices for displacing transmission losses and providing supply to meet the growing load on the distribution system. The distributed wind avoided cost figure came from contracts secured by a community wind developer in Minnesota.”

[C8]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'Y')es HVDC lines have ROW and NIMBY problems.

[C8]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')Transmission line capacity was not adequate after installations last year.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('C8', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')Transmission line capacity was not adequate after installations last year.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('C8', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', 'Y')es HVDC lines have ROW and NIMBY problems.

[C8]

I read up on HVDC, Wiki seems to list the main disadvantages as reliability, costs, complexity, and the fact that the tech is still being developed so spare parts won't be standardized. It seems to be the basis of this "smart grid" idea"? So, these disadvantages I read about don't seem too big as far as mounting a NIMBY battle. What am I missing? Are there additional fears making the rumor mill such as cancer causing fields, endangered species, etc.?
And how founded are these concerns?

[Newfie]

C8,

I don’t know that you are missing much. I think the main deferents are capital, folks want quarterly earnings, they are not interested in long term capital investments.

HVDC has a sufficient history to demonstrate its value. It’s been used in some very hostile Environments including undersea cables.

25 years ago I worked on a 60hz to 25hz conversion plant. It was basically a 60hz to DC converted married to a DC to 25hz inverter. It is still working today. Built by ASEA. It was providing propulsion to a section of rail lines so it was not a small unit.

The psychological objections can be overcome by public education. And there will be those holdouts you just have to buy out or do eminent domain.

If we were to take on a national scale project there would be enough manufacturing to Build the manufacturing base. Hell, we don’t have the manufacturing base for the old style transformers.

Personally I would nationalize the grid. Take it away from the generators. It’s a shared asset paid for by the people that they are ruining through neglect. Then make the generators pay to use the system. Threat it like an interstate highway.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')
Personally I would nationalize the grid. Take it away from the generators. It’s a shared asset paid for by the people that they are ruining through neglect. Then make the generators pay to use the system. Threat it like an interstate highway.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'C')8,

I don’t know that you are missing much. I think the main deferents are capital, folks want quarterly earnings, they are not interested in long term capital investments.

HVDC has a sufficient history to demonstrate its value. It’s been used in some very hostile Environments including undersea cables.

25 years ago I worked on a 60hz to 25hz conversion plant. It was basically a 60hz to DC converted married to a DC to 25hz inverter. It is still working today. Built by ASEA. It was providing propulsion to a section of rail lines so it was not a small unit.

The psychological objections can be overcome by public education. And there will be those holdouts you just have to buy out or do eminent domain.

If we were to take on a national scale project there would be enough manufacturing to Build the manufacturing base. Hell, we don’t have the manufacturing base for the old style transformers.

Personally I would nationalize the grid. Take it away from the generators. It’s a shared asset paid for by the people that they are ruining through neglect. Then make the generators pay to use the system. Threat it like an interstate highway.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'C')8,

I don’t know that you are missing much. I think the main deferents are capital, folks want quarterly earnings, they are not interested in long term capital investments.

HVDC has a sufficient history to demonstrate its value. It’s been used in some very hostile Environments including undersea cables.

25 years ago I worked on a 60hz to 25hz conversion plant. It was basically a 60hz to DC converted married to a DC to 25hz inverter. It is still working today. Built by ASEA. It was providing propulsion to a section of rail lines so it was not a small unit.

The psychological objections can be overcome by public education. And there will be those holdouts you just have to buy out or do eminent domain.

If we were to take on a national scale project there would be enough manufacturing to Build the manufacturing base. Hell, we don’t have the manufacturing base for the old style transformers.

Personally I would nationalize the grid. Take it away from the generators. It’s a shared asset paid for by the people that they are ruining through neglect. Then make the generators pay to use the system. Threat it like an interstate highway.

[vtsnowedin]

I saw a story today where California was considering how plugged in EVs could be used to help control the grid. That is something we talked about here months ago.
It is good to see the powers that be in California are up to date on the latest technology and are visionary in their plans for the grid.

[Newfie]

The reasons I suggested nationalization.

Moving from the current AC system to a DC system will require planning on a national level. And will require much coordination and cooperation between various private entities in numerous states. It’s not quite like the interstate highway system that can be done state by state. It’s more like changing the gage of the railroads from standard gate to wide. If it were Just a matter of maintenance then I would agree.

Second is that it will require a large and expensive project funded by the federal government. Federal spending requires federal oversight.

The project makes the most sense if done in conjunction with large scale renewable generation facilities. Wind, PV, and solar thermal collection. It also requires the construction of storage facilities. There are advantages with just converting the existing system but the planning should be to incorporate Increased renewable generation and storage. The generation will likely be in the SW. Storage closer to the end users. Not sure what the storage would look like; some kind of compressed gas or perhaps thermal heating in super insulated containers. The states are not equipped to handle projects on this scale that work across state lines.

But this is a bit nit picking. Don’t really care how it gets done. We can realize insignificant efficiency increase. If Capitalism was allowed to work it should be embracing these upgrades. That it is not working means something is broken in the economic system. If we can’t fix it within Capitalisim then use something different.