[onlooker]

What hogwash. "For the first time, ordinary people were allowed to profit from private property."
Ordinary people were and continue to be the work and debt slaves of the ownership/wealthy class. Having money can be leveraged to having more money. The arbitrary Rule of money ie, everything is priced has been an unequivocal disaster for mankind on two fronts. It has deprived the less wealthy of both freedoms and of a decent livelihood. Secondly, it has allowed the few super wealthy to control the levers of power in a direct economic manner and indirectly by bribing and blackmailing the ruling political apparatus. Finally and worse of all, the profit motive and competition both deeply ingrained in the essence of Capitalism paved the way to allow the natural instinct of greed to flourish and in doing so, degrade and deplete the one nest we have being Earth

[jedrider]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'P')residential candidates and the media keep telling people “it’s immoral” that a few rich people have so much more money than everyone else.

They talk as if it doesn’t matter what the rich did to get the money. Instead, the fact that they are rich is itself immoral.

Yaron Brook of the Ayn Rand Institute says this is lunacy. “They want to condemn the people that actually have moved civilization forward,” Brook complains. “People who improved the standard of living for everybody on the planet.”

Everybody? How is that possible? Isn’t there a certain amount of money in the world, so that when rich people grab a lot there’s less for everyone else?

No. Because wealth can be created.

But for thousands of years, that barely happened.

Capitalism, he concludes, “is a fantastic system that is fundamentally moral because it allows individuals to pursue their own happiness. Your pursuit of your own well-being -- a virtue in and of itself -- also helps the world be a better world.”

[KaiserJeep]

Both of you are pathetic. Both of you benefit immensely from the wealth created by the "rich" as well. Contrast the life you have today with the last 100,000 years before Capitalism, when you labored all day in the fields to earn the equivalent of $2 which works out to about an annual income of $400. From this you had to horde enough food and firewood to last the Winter.

Thanks to those ravening, greedy Capitalists, you have more than that. Thanks to them, there is more to be had.

[asg70]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', '
') Finally and worse of all, the profit motive and competition both deeply ingrained in the essence of Capitalism paved the way to allow the natural instinct of greed to flourish and in doing so, degrade and deplete the one nest we have being Earth

[onlooker]

https://www.globalresearch.ca/world-ban ... XQY2IphBU0

 World Bank Whistleblower Reveals How the Global Elite Rules the World

[Newfie]

Throwing this out for contemplation, perhaps we are coming to a time when TPTB, if they exist, will step forward and exert their influence to calm the political storm.

Could also be phrased that the super elites will demonstrate their value to society by stepping forward to calm the political storm.

I say this because I find it hard to believe TPTB/elites will benefit from what appears to be brewing.

If TPTB exist they may well show themselves, be unmasked or at least the pressure of their hand felt.

If the elite are of any value to society now is the time to express it.

Thoughts?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')hrowing this out for contemplation, perhaps we are coming to a time when TPTB, if they exist, will step forward and exert their influence to calm the political storm.

Could also be phrased that the super elites will demonstrate their value to society by stepping forward to calm the political storm.

I say this because I find it hard to believe TPTB/elites will benefit from what appears to be brewing.

If TPTB exist they may well show themselves, be unmasked or at least the pressure of their hand felt.

If the elite are of any value to society now is the time to express it.

Thoughts?

[Newfie]

Interesting thoughts, not sure I agree but requires contemplation.

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')hrowing this out for contemplation, perhaps we are coming to a time when TPTB, if they exist, will step forward and exert their influence to calm the political storm.

Thoughts?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')hrowing this out for contemplation, perhaps we are coming to a time when TPTB, if they exist, will step forward and exert their influence to calm the political storm.

Could also be phrased that the super elites will demonstrate their value to society by stepping forward to calm the political storm.

I say this because I find it hard to believe TPTB/elites will benefit from what appears to be brewing.

If TPTB exist they may well show themselves, be unmasked or at least the pressure of their hand felt.

If the elite are of any value to society now is the time to express it.

Thoughts?

[Pops]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'T')he better analogy than simbiosis or mutualism though regarding the wealthy is when a parasite just weakens but does not kill its host.

[evilgenius]

I was reading the other day on the BBC's website about how a gunsmith came up with the notion to create interchangeable parts for guns. It seems that, up until then, each gun was made by hand. Good luck taking a part off of one and exchanging it with another. Interchangeable parts were still painstaking, but with the invention of things like standardized drills and other machine tools, they became less so.

When that gunsmith introduced the idea, many other gunsmiths got into an uproar. They feared they would lose repair work because people would just be able to replace one part with another out of a box. They didn't foresee how they would lose out on manufacturing as well.

In the same way many of the problems we face in society today are a result of how much of an impact that economies of scale have upon success. Like with how GM was always the most influential car maker because they could take advantage of greater economy of scale, the world is influenced by the thing. If people don't want to cooperate they wind up getting shamed into it, usually, in the information age, but the idea is the same; the large benefits the large and not the small. They might rely upon the small, but they don't have to listen to them, even if they protest about their circumstances.

We do all benefit from economies of scale. None of us is trapped spending all of our time hammering out our own thing. We use little bits of other people's labor, thanks to some organizing principle which brought that labor together collectively into some meaningful whole.

It is possible, however, to lobby those who make the laws to exclude competitors. Social custom also plays a role in ordering how people think, so much so that they will not engage in certain aspects of markets. The world is practically made out of advertising. It is scary how the majority can act within society without regard for checks upon its abuse of any minority, especially when it comes to social media.

The latest thing is artificial intelligence. We have the gall to believe we can create it, even though we don't understand what consciousness is. We've fallen for the fallacy that for whom a thing is done means that the whom in question must be something like consciousness. But that's probably good enough to bring a whole new level of economy of scale to bear upon each and every one of us.

In terms of corporations, there isn't really anything there either. There is no consciousness at the center. There is no observer whom you would think might be capable of realizing how much abuse it is dealing out. There are competing stakeholders, but the short term interest is likely to win out among them. We have enough trouble with people simply abusing other people. It is hard enough to get abusive people to realize what kind of people they are and repent from it. It's doubly so, when we set things up to essentially reward abusers for their abuse. I don't think we will have much luck with these even larger things, unless we give power to the stakeholders with other than short term interest.

[Newfie]

Evil,

Having a hard time following you in this one.

I’m still not convinced that TOTB exist in any cohesive manner. Surely there are folks with more digital wealth than others but can that really be put into use? I do believe that these influential folks have a lot in common and that can sway the way things go, but I don’t think there is some secret cabal.

I might be wrong which is why I’m watching the whole impeachment process to see if I can discern TPTB working to influence things. Perhaps but I’m not sure. Maybe that Pelozi all of a sudden moved the impeachment forward is an indication someone leaned on her to do so, perhaps to flip Trumps wings with regard to trade negotiations.

Don’t know. Just watching.

[evilgenius]

I suppose it's just to say that we can look at the world in terms of only our own personal interests, usually wanting instant gratification. When we do, pretty much everything that doesn't work in our favor gets labeled. Wanting stuff doesn't mean we are wrong to want it. But we don't have to be the Israelites wandering about in the desert complaining about every little thing that doesn't go our way either. Concerted efforts that work against us are usually fairly naked in nature. Somebody probably lobbied for what they got, and have had whatever provision placed into the law so that they can keep it that way. When that happens, though, the process of reversal, should there be real injustice, is often just as naked. It's not often some secret cabal, but it can be the result of how we collectively think.

As well, we can choose to order our lives in accordance with other goals than our own personal instant gratification. When we do that we usually have to pick from things larger and more complicated than ourselves in order to discover our goals. It's like how when Jesus said that a person can do things in secret, not simply for them right now, so that their reward will be in heaven. If you think about God not as a beardy man on a throne but as a set of ideas which can be as deeply embedded in reality as math, that heaven can be right here on earth. It's what free will is all about, that we can make choices out of our consciences that seek to pay homage to ways of thinking that may actually act against what we would otherwise want. Then, when the world becomes shaped after those ideas, you find that your father has rewarded you. But you have to have the faith to believe that acting that way eventually will pay off.

[Newfie]

That presumes people choose your particular version of God. It’s a nice version, not criticizing it.

However people can also pick other versions of God, not your concept of God. The one I see being in ascendance is the one where an “invisible hand” drives the market place to take care of the worthy. This version is a jealous and greedy God that requires ever expanding markets, eternal growth, for his satisfaction, as his sacrifice.

In general TPTB, should they exist, generally adhere to this conceptualization. They call it “Capitalism” but it isn’t “Capitalism” any more than the Roman Catholic Church (or pick any other major denomination) is true to the teachings of Jesus. The original idea has been changed and modified by the priesthood and their hangers on to their personal benefit. Personally I identify the ascendant belief system as Consumerism, and what we are observing is a civil war between the major sects fighting for control of Consumerism; think Shite vs Sunny, or Calvinism vs Episcopal.

Not that I’m stuck on Capitalism, Socialism has its own place in the mix.

It would probably be a good thing if folks adopted some of your dogma. I’m just pointing out that they already have a dogma and many are very strong adherents. So it’s not a question of getting them to accept God, you have to convince them to convert.

[Newfie]

EU,

I posted some stuff on the “Degrowth Thread” that is vaguely related to this.

[Cog]

Companies put billions into play to put the Trans Pacific partnership into effect. Trump cancelled TPP and there are globalists who aren't a bit happy about it. A lot of rich Dems were counting on TPP to siphon off the graft into their pockets.

[Newfie]

Cog,

I question TPTB as a cohesive force. I’m looking for evidence that such a force exists. Do you see such evidence?

And I make a distinction between simply the elites working for their general benefit as opposed to some more organized effort. I’m looking for evidence of the latter. The Bildenburgers or what ever.

[Cog]

I've really not seen evidence that some secret cabal of people conspire to make the world work in a certain way. The elite that you talk about, do on an individual basis use their influence to make sure they stay in that elite class.

There is no denying the Uber rich and powerful have more access to the levers of power and ability to influence policymakers to get a desired outcome.

[Newfie]

OK, that’s pretty much the way I see it. I know others feel differently. And if there is some cabs then now is likely to be a time when they move in such a way as to expose themselves. I’m looking but still don’t see evidence of an organized effort.