[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', '[')url=https://youtu.be/z2_eD6GxINw]Video[/url]

For those who are confused.

[dissident]

Poor Democrats. They think that they are misrepresented.

It remains a fact that Democrat presidents have undermined US nuclear waste treatment development. Carter was a total loon. How can anyone sane promote indefinite storage when there is a choice to further burn the "waste" and leave actinide waste that decays in less than 300 years. Obama's actions are transcendentally retarded as well:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/sto ... =101689489

Total schizophrenia. We don't want nuclear waste, but we will undermine any effort to actually get rid of it.

[kublikhan]

Dissident, there is currently bipartisan support for the Yucca Mountain repository. Except in Nevada where there is bipartisan opposition.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Bipartisan Support for Yucca Mountain Nuclear Waste Bill — Except in Nevada
The House will take up legislation this week that would help restart the stalled process for making Nevada’s Yucca Mountain a central repository for commercial nuclear waste. After years of false starts and misses, the bill is moving with bipartisan support. In Nevada, however, there is bipartisan opposition to the Yucca project, and the state’s congressional delegation prepared a series of amendments meant to ensure that the House would consider key safety provisions for the project, which is located about 100 miles northwest of Las Vegas and adjacent to the land where the government tested nuclear weapons.

Nevada opposition
Local opposition to the Yucca site has always been strong, but this year two members of the Nevada delegation, Republican Sen. Dean Heller and Democratic Rep. Jacky Rosen, are heading toward a close Senate race against each other in November. Both oppose the project. The state’s resistance extends back to when Congress first officially designated Yucca Mountain as the nation’s commercial waste repository in 1987 as an update to the Nuclear Waste Policy Act. Dubbed the “screw Nevada bill” by Democrat Harry Reid — a freshman senator at the time — the law moved forward without the support of Nevada lawmakers. Critics complained that the site and shipment of nuclear waste through the state could expose citizens to radioactivity via leaks into the water tables or a potential shipping derailment.

But with the Trump administration renewing interest in moving Yucca Mountain forward, Nevada lawmakers are seeing the potential for a second “screw Nevada” congressional moment. “This legislation is Screw Nevada 2.0,” Titus said in a statement. “Nevada is not a wasteland, and I’ll continue to fight any attempt to turn it into the nation’s nuclear waste dumping ground.”

[Tanada]

Funny thing, the State of Nevada opposes Yucca mountain repository, but the people who actually live there are eager for the jobs and taxes it will result in for their poor section of the state and are majority in favor.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'F')unny thing, the State of Nevada opposes Yucca mountain repository, but the people who actually live there are eager for the jobs and taxes it will result in for their poor section of the state and are majority in favor.

[Zarquon]

https://www.counterpunch.org/2011/12/15 ... -watchdog/

"...
Obama himself has had a long and unpleasing record of engagement with the nuclear industry, notably the Exelon Corporation, which has been making generous provision to Obama’s campaign chest ever since his days in the Illinois Senate, where he performed various useful services on the corporation’s behalf. It should therefore have come as no surprise that when a vacancy arose on the NRC board early in his administration, Obama nominated Magwood.

The nomination was opposed by over a hundred organizations which vainly cited Magwood’s shameful record as a tout for the industry he was now supposed to regulate. Once installed early in 2010, he showed every sign of a zealous commitment to advancing the priorities of the nuclear power industry.
...
Opposing the infamous bill was freshman Senator Harry Reid. Outraged and humiliated by the way that legislators from Washington state and Texas, the two other nominees for a waste site, had effectively consigned Nevada to be the radioactive trash dump, Reid, a former amateur boxer, remarked that “sometimes you have to go round the back of the bar” to finish a fight.

In ensuing years, as the construction crews tunneled away into the depths of the mountain, Reid took several initiatives to ensure that Yucca Mountain never opened for business. First, he advanced through the Democratic leadership to become Majority Leader in 2006. Second, he maneuvered successfully to move Nevada’s Democratic caucuses to January, thus rendering them potentially crucial in the nomination race. This had the natural consequence of generating fervent pledges from Barack Obama and Hilary Clinton in 2008 that, so long as there was breath in their bodies, Yucca Mountain would never hold nuclear waste. Thirdly, Reid recruited as his appropriations director and science policy adviser Gregory Jaczko, a former aide to veteran anti-nuke congressman Ed Markey. Fourth, he induced George W. Bush in 2005, to nominate Jaczko as a Commissioner to the NRC in exchange for dropping Democratic opposition to a number of federal judgeships. Following Obama’s presidential victory, Reid demanded and secured Jaczko’s appointment as Chairman of the NRC.
..."

[eclipse]

the reality is, nuclear waste is *the solution* to climate change! Imagine digging up your best crude oil and refining it into A-grade jet fuel only to bury it again! Madness. Burying nuclear waste is like that! Breeder reactors eat nuclear waste, getting 90 times the energy out of it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor Dr James Hansen’s science council for global initiatives recommends breeders.
GE have a breeder reactor called the PRISM that's ready to commercialise in the first country that will allow it.http://gehitachiprism.com/https://en.wi ... M_(reactor) The UK has enough nuclear waste to power her for 500 years. Nuclear ‘waste’ in America is worth about $30 TRILLION because it could run America for 1000 years. Finally, once the breeder reactor has burned the waste again and again, Argonne labs shows how to melt the final waste product down into ceramic tablets and store it under the reactor-park for just 300 years. Then it is safe!

Here’s the 4 minute Argonne Labs video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlMDDhQ9-pE

[Yonnipun]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eclipse', 't')he reality is, nuclear waste is *the solution* to climate change! Imagine digging up your best crude oil and refining it into A-grade jet fuel only to bury it again! Madness. Burying nuclear waste is like that! Breeder reactors eat nuclear waste, getting 90 times the energy out of it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor Dr James Hansen’s science council for global initiatives recommends breeders.
GE have a breeder reactor called the PRISM that's ready to commercialise in the first country that will allow it.http://gehitachiprism.com/https://en.wi ... M_(reactor) The UK has enough nuclear waste to power her for 500 years. Nuclear ‘waste’ in America is worth about $30 TRILLION because it could run America for 1000 years. Finally, once the breeder reactor has burned the waste again and again, Argonne labs shows how to melt the final waste product down into ceramic tablets and store it under the reactor-park for just 300 years. Then it is safe!

Here’s the 4 minute Argonne Labs video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlMDDhQ9-pE

[kublikhan]

To expand on Yonnipun's comment, here is some more info on why breeder reactors are no solution to the nuclear waste problem.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n October 2016, Japan’s science and technology ministry announced that it was going to start decommissioning its Monju fast breeder reactor in 2020. Monju had a troubled history, and the decision to shut it down was in line with decisions in the United States and Western European countries to cancel their breeder reactor programs—which had come to be seen as unnecessary, unsafe, or uneconomical.

In the more than 60 years that have passed since the adoption of the three-phase plan, we have learned a lot about breeder reactors. Three of the important lessons are that fast breeder reactors are costly to build and operate; they have special safety problems; and they have severe reliability problems, including persistent sodium leaks.

These problems were observed in countries around the world, and have not been solved despite spending over $100 billion (in 2007 dollars) on breeder reactor research and development, and on constructing prototypes.

[Tanada]

Myths, half-truths and lies; Oh My!

[kublikhan]

if something is a lie or half truth then correct it. What exactly are lies and half truths?

[eclipse]

There were plenty of early car designs that weren't that great, let alone early attempts at flight! But after trial and error they commercialised stuff that works.

After 400 Fast Neutron Reactor reactor-years we know the physics works, it's just which of the many breeder reactor strategies is the best to commercialise.

But that's all in the future! We can build out today's non-breeder Gen3 reactors with passive safety, like the AP1000. We've enough uranium to last us a few generations in which time the breeder commercialisation programs already in play will have matured, including the Japanese Fast Neutron Reactor program.

Russia just opened their BN-800 and, while I'm not saying it's the best design and the one that will be adopted in the future, they have sold plans to the Chinese and is one of the first fast breeder reactors in the world to be exported. Mind you, the Japanese paid a billion dollars for the plans for the Bn-600, a Fast Neutron Reactor that has operated well, proved reliable, and is the backbone of the Bn-800 design. You've quoted a mostly anti-nuclear organisation with a fear bias against plutonium but whenever asking proliferation questions you have to ask which kind of plutonium is being produced. You'll find many FNR designs burn weapons grade plutonium and turn it into reactor grade fuel. And far from being doomed as your piece above suggests, there are many FNR reactor programs that have worked, are working, and are still in development around the world.

Japan’s nuclear energy policy now includes having a Generation IV sodium-cooled demonstration FNR in operation by 2025. Indeed, the Monju and Joyu reactors were experimental - they were testing a bunch of different operations and kit, and broke some stuff. As you do when you push experiments to see what happens! But were they failures?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n October 2016 METI’s Conference on Fast Reactor Development agreed that it would be technologically possible to develop a demonstration reactor using the experience obtained from the prototype fast breeder reactor (FBR) Monju and the experimental reactor Joyo, owned by the Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA). It also affirmed the importance of international cooperation in such an endeavour, and was briefed on progress with France’s Astrid project. METI’s Agency for Natural Resources & Energy (ANRE) set out requirements for any new demonstration fast reactors.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/informatio ... ctors.aspx

[dissident]

The only near-commerical stage fast neutron reactor on the planet is the BN-800. The BN-600 operated for 30 years and refined the
French concept that was deployed with the Superphenix reactor. The BN-800 is not an experimental reactor but en early stage variant of the BN-1200 that will be widely deployed in Russia and, given Rosatom's 67% share of the global reactor business, abroad as well.

Molten salt reactors get lots of lip service but never leave the test stage. This is strange for such a superior design. It looks like the corrosion of the piping and the need for developed chemical reprocessing technology is basically ignored by advocates but is a show stopper. Carter killed the molten salt reactor chances by killing nuclear "waste" reprocessing. France has the reprocessing capacity but is not working on any molten salt reactors. Japan is way behind after wasting all its time on the nonsensical Monju test reactor (which is a conversion of a water moderated/cooled type design instead of the French concept) and does not have any nuclear reprocessing capability. And this capability is not something one gets in a few years by spending some money.

https://thebulletin.org/2018/08/thorium ... m-problem/

[eclipse]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dissident', 'T')he only near-commerical stage fast neutron reactor on the planet is the BN-800.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')uji MSR
The Fuji MSR is a 100-200 MWe graphite-moderated design to operate as a near-breeder with ThF4-UF4 fuel salt and FLiBe coolant at 700°C. It can consume plutonium and actinides, and be from 100 to 1000 MWe. Batch reprocessing. It is being developed internationally by a Japanese, Russian and US consortium: the International Thorium Molten Salt Forum (ITMSF), based in Japan. It is derived from the Oak Ridge MSBR, and several variants have been designed, including a 10 MWe mini Fuji. Thorium Tech Solutions Inc (TTS) plan to commercialise the Fuji concept, and is working on it with the Halden test reactor in Norway.

[eclipse]

First of all, which Halden Reactor? The one you're talking about isn't a MSR at all, but is an old boiling water reactor from 1958. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halden_Reactor

Maybe they were going to retrofit a smaller MSR inside the Halden complex? I'm not sure. It does seem that the Fuji MSR plans were bought out by another company but I'm not sure if they've got the funding yet to try and commercialise this specific design. All I see is their website, and there isn't even a wiki for them yet? Whatever. These are long term projects developing the potential in the physics into a commercial reality. There will be bumps along the way, but we know the physics works and we know the benefits.

2 main reasons.

Fuel: if we just get the configuration right, we can get 60 to 90 times the energy out of each unit of uranium, stretching both uranium and thorium use on earth out for billions of years. Uranium from seawater is 'renewable' in that uranium particles are topped up by erosion. I'm not betting on exactly which breeder will win out of the 2 main categories, but that there are dozens of approaches within each branch of the physics, whether Fast Neutron Reactor or Thermal breeder reactor (SSR or MSR), gives the nuclear engineering world a high degree of confidence that the human race will commercialise what they already know to be true. We already have 400 reactor years of experience with FNR's. We know it works. We're just tidying up the model. It's like the Wright Brothers have not only flown their plane, but we've had WW1 and WW2 and are now just getting into the commercial passenger jet market. Back then we knew the physics worked, but just had to spend the money to commercialise it.

There are no technical barriers. We can do this, we just need the willpower. I expect that willpower to arrive with our first real climate disaster or peak oil hitting, and then we'll have a race to electrify transport AND build out a huge fleet of AP1000's while R&D on commercialising the perfect breeder continues. There's no rush. The original nuclear engineers imaged we'd all be using breeders by now, but that was based on a very pessimistic appraisal of the world's uranium reserves. We found too much uranium to make the race to breeders a priority. Also, the Cold War meant research into Fast Breeders got the nod from the Pentagon, as they can be weaponised. But the MSR thermal breeder pathway is not as easy to weaponise. So there are historical forces at work here as well.

Second main reason, the nuclear waste from breeder reactors only has to be melted down into ceramic blocks and then stored under the reactor for 500 years and then is safe.

They're two GREAT reasons to look forward to a breeder reactor future!

[eclipse]

Now, as to what projects might be commercialised first? Well, that would be the BN-800, unless you have another definition of 'commercial'?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')nit 4 of the Beloyarsk nuclear power plant in Russia has started commercial operation, state nuclear corporation Rosatom announced today. The BN-800 fast neutron reactor started operating at 100% power for the first time on 17 August.... The 789 MWe BN-800 Beloyarsk 4 is fuelled by a mix of uranium and plutonium oxides arranged to produce new fuel material as it burns. Its capacity exceeds that of the world's second most powerful fast reactor - the 560 MWe BN-600 Beloyarsk 3.

[kublikhan]

If you want to say fast breeder reactors are the solution to the nuclear waste problem I'm not sure using Russia is a very good example. Not when they've been taking nuclear waste from Beloyarsk and dumping it in a nearby swamp.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ussia's laws prohibit dumping of liquid radioactive waste in the open hydrographic network. Despite this, it takes place at the Beloyarsk NPP over many years. During the operation of the plant’s three units, radionuclides have been accumulated in sediments of the Olkhovsky wetland (the BNPP water dump site) and removed by the Pyshma river to 180 km downstream. In fact, the Olkhovsky wetland and the Olkhovka river have turned into an illegal dump-site of radioactive waste and become a secondary source of pollution. More than 100 Ku of long-lived radionuclides have been dumped to the Olkhovsky wetland. According to the Institute of Geophysics, in terms radionuclides content, muddy bottoms of the Olkhovka river are close to the category of radioactive waste - the concentration of radionuclides in them is more than 30 kBq / kg. Increased level of activity has led to the need for closure of the wetland area (about 40 ha). Independent studies carried out by the Radiation Safety Committee found multiple exceeding of cesium-134 and cesium-137 content in the water.

In addition, heavy hydrogen - tritium - emerged in result of the first two blocks operation. In water of the Beloyarsk Reservoir concentration of tritium 2-3 times exceeds natural background. According to the Institute of Geophysics, "tritium is found in the Elizavetisky underground water intake from which drinking water is taken to Yekaterinburg”. Meanwhile, the existing system of radioactive monitoring does not take into consideration impact of tritium, radon and carbon-14.

[dissident]

What a freaking joke! Brain dead propaganda for brain dead saps.

Sodium leaks from unpressurized vat reactors are irrelevant. These clowns and you, a clown, want to make it sound like it was corium release from full meltdowns. Take your denier BS and shove it back up your rear end, loser. Irradiated sodium half lives are short:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotopes_of_sodium

Since these leaks do not escape the vat they have zero impact on the environment. This is not as bad as tritium leaks from conventional power plants that enter the ground water. And in spite of such incidents, the area around nuclear power plants is among the cleanest, like a residential neighbourhood. Not an industrial site, and not the toxic waste dump that surrounds a coal power plant.

Claims about Russian nuclear waste dumping are unproven and serve as convenient lies. It's not as if somebody from the west is actually going to investigate these claims. Also, we have the bait and switch of using events from the 1950s and making them out to be current ones. In case it is not clear, so-called nuclear waste is actually worth something, especially to Russia which does not have very large Uranium deposits. Trying to smear Russians as primitive savages who don't know how to add or even feed themselves is racist hate speech. Russia has been taking US nuclear warheads and reprocessing them into MOX reactor fuel to be burned by conventional nuclear power plants around the world:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/informatio ... -fuel.aspx

Russia has launched production of MOX for the BN-800:

http://world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/ ... -assemblie

But according to liar zealots, Russians are just dumping everything into a swamp. Go and get f*cked.

http://euanmearns.com/the-bn-800-fast-r ... long-road/



OMG, but meh sodium leaks in the BN-600 that never exited the building. Love canal? What's Love canal....

[Yonnipun]

The only real solution to the nuclear pollution is dilution. And russians seems to aknowledge it.