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We would call it bribing

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We would call it bribing

Unread postby lorenzo » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 06:05:29

I don't want to turn this in an anti-American topic (shock 8O ), but can anyone from the other side of the pond explain why Chevron can just walk into Congress, stash a few million dollars into the pockets of congressmen, telling them they should not allow CNOOC to buy Unocal, and walk out.

Over here in Europe, this would be called bribing. In the US, it seems to be the most normal thing to do. It's even institutionalized.

How does this work? And why is this kind of dubious practises still around in the 21st century, in the world's most powerful country?
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 06:08:11

I dont want to be Anti_UN/EU, but why is it you guys import Africans to kill them and rape women and children in third world countries?
Rape, slavery and ritualistic killings are something we've given up a a long time ago! Why is this despicable practice still around in the 21st Century?! 8O
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 06:13:18

Oh, and on the subject of UN and bribery.....

What DO you guys call bribery? Cause theres sure a helluva lot of it in the UN.
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Unread postby Macsporan » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 06:13:42

Yes it is absolutely deplorable. American practices are staggeringly corrupt.

You should hear what goes on when it comes to military procurement.

The Old Time Roman Republic died of corruption and this American one will go the same way, unless one of its other moral diseases gets it first....
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 06:15:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Macsporan', 'Y')es it is absolutely deplorable. American practices are staggeringly corrupt.

You should hear what goes on when it comes to military procurement.

The Old Time Roman Republic died of corruption and this American one will go the same way, unless one of its other moral diseases gets it first....


See post above.
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Unread postby Macsporan » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 06:25:01

Let's face it: the US political system is grossly defective. It may have been big news in 1776 but its largely obsolete and curdled in corruption.

It has become a plaything of corporations, right-wing whackjobs and scheming layers of modern day courtiers.

It is a foul system and needs to be replaced with a pariliamentary democracy that will at least end the tyranny of the Repulicrats and the Demoplicans.

Two loathesomely corrupt "bought and paid for" political mafias do not and cannot represent the aspirations of the American people.

The whole thing needs to be scrapped.
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Unread postby lorenzo » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 06:26:28

So does anyone want to explain how it is that these practises aren't called bribery in the US?

(Let's leave the UN and the EU out of this, please - we can do them in another thread - but one thing is certain: you can't walk into Strassboug or Brussels, hand out money to representatives and tell them you won't give more money if they don't support your cause; you can't buy politicians here. Moreover, the Oil for Food scam was mainly an American affair - but that's another story.)

So how does the institutionalized system of bribery in the US work?
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 06:34:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', 'S')o does anyone want to explain how it is that these practises aren't called bribery in the US?


Same way as they arent considered bribery in most other governments

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '(')Let's leave the UN and the EU out of this, please - we can do them in another thread -


Yeah, except I'm tired of you thinking Europe is somehow vastly superior to America. News flash.... IT AINT! You have just as many problems as we do. Your just too ignorant to either see it or admit it. i dont know which. So I'll continue to point this out to you.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'b')ut one thing is certain: you can't walk into Strassboug or Brussels, hand out money to representatives and tell them you won't give more money if they don't support your cause; you cant buy politicians here.


That you know of.....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')oreover, the Oil for Food scam was mainly an American affair - but that's another story.)


Sure it was. :roll:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o how does the institutionalized system of bribery in the US work?


See above. Apparently the same way it does in the EU/UN/any other countries government. Seek understanding in how it works in the UN and you'll understand how it works here.
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Unread postby Free » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 06:58:27

Yes please I would be very interested as well how Americans see this, and how it is possible.

Please let's not evolve this into another "mine is bigger than yours" competition.

If you want to talk about us decadent dirty Europeans please open another thread, and we will try our best to explain to you the things you always wanted to know and never dared to ask. (Did you know we change our underpants only if we think a road accident could happen to us?)
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:09:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', 'Y')es please I would be very interested as well how Americans see this, and how it is possible.

Please let's not evolve this into another "mine is bigger than yours" competition.

If you want to talk about us decadent dirty Europeans please open another thread, and we will try our best to explain to you the things you always wanted to know and never dared to ask. (Did you know we change our underpants only if we think a road accident could happen to us?)


Heres a thought. Do a search for Lorenzo's posts. Every post of his is negative and degrading to America. So, if you read all of his posts hell you should know whats wrong with America! Or didnt you get the memo? Lorenzo majored in American Politics, American History and World History and is very well educated in pointing out all the flaws of America.
Course, he miserably failed European Politics and European History so he has no idea how much corruption and filth is in his very own beloved country...........

007 - Damned tired of people standing in shit trying to sling it at other people
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Unread postby Free » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:16:08

Who knows, maybe all he wants to achieve with his evil Antiamerican propaganda is getting your attention? Maybe all he wants is to be loved by America? Maybe all he wants is you to say: "After all, Europe is not sooo bad and backwards."

Did you never get hassled and nerved by somebody who only wanted your attention? A few kind words is all it needs to stop it.

So don't be so cruel please, and don't keep rejecting him!

(Edit: Ok this sounds too much like I really mean that. Of course I always take side with a fellow European if it goes against "insert favourite swearing here")
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:21:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', 'W')ho knows, maybe all he wants to achieve with his evil Antiamerican propaganda is getting your attention?


No, he's continually trying to push the "Europe is better" agenda. As I said, read his other threads. Same common theme.. "We're better, neener neener".
News articles I've read say otherwise.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')aybe all he wants is to be loved by America? Maybe all he wants is you to say: "After all, Europe is not sooo bad and backwards."


No, he doesnt want that. I personally have no problem with Europe. I view it as a place just as fucked up as the rest of the world, America included. Its just screwed up in different ways is all.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')id you never get hassled and nerved by somebody who only wanted your attention? A few kind words is all it needs to stop it.


To that I say "Pot meet kettle". Maybe continually posting anti American articles isnt the best way to try to begin a friendship. I assure you it will get my attention, but not in any "Lets be friends" kinda way.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o don't be so cruel please, and don't keep rejecting him!


I dont reject him, only his bassackwards "facts" and beliefs.
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Unread postby Free » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:29:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')
I personally have no problem with Europe. I view it as a place just as fucked up as the rest of the world, America included. Its just screwed up in different ways is all.



Hm, that's a very good start, I think most of us would agree to that. I think it all comes down to many misunderstandings, and this Forum is a great place to resolve them. And I honestly think that Lorenzo wanted to do just that. He explicitely stated that he didn't want to bash the US with this.

I think you are right in many ways that Europes politics is corrupted just as much, only in another way, it would be done behind the curtains.

But that's probably the thing why the Chevron-deal is so outrageous to us, because it's done so openly! You lay money on the table and get what you want! That's acceptable in a supermarket for us, but not in a government which is elected by the people! That's how we see it, what's your point of view?
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Re: We would call it bribing

Unread postby nuhax » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:31:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', ' ')explain why Chevron can just walk into Congress, stash a few million dollars into the pockets of congressmen, telling them they should not allow CNOOC to buy Unocal, and walk out.


And where is the evidence that this occurred?

As I've already posted on other threads, CNOOC is a state-owned enterprise of a Communist government. So all free trade rules are thrown out the window as far as I am concerned. If they want free trade then make CNOOC a private enterprise.
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Re: We would call it bribing

Unread postby Free » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:36:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nuhax', '
')As I've already posted on other threads, CNOOC is a state-owned enterprise of a Communist government. So all free trade rules are thrown out the window as far as I am concerned. If they want free trade then make CNOOC a private enterprise.


I think the problem with this is that it is a fine line between private enterprise and one which gets at least supported by the state. Look at the trade wars between EU and US, most of the time it's about what kind of support for a private enterprise is allowed and what not, for example Boeing and Airbus.

But isn't this exactly what we are talking about, that there seems to be no kind of border between private enterprise and state in the US? The private enterprise gives money to the state and gets supported? Is it worse if the state gives money to a private enterprise?
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:39:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')
I personally have no problem with Europe. I view it as a place just as fucked up as the rest of the world, America included. Its just screwed up in different ways is all.



Hm, that's a very good start, I think most of us would agree to that. I think it all comes down to many misunderstandings, and this Forum is a great place to resolve them. And I honestly think that Lorenzo wanted to do just that. He explicitely stated that he didn't want to bash the US with this.


I reiterate. Read some of Lorenzo's other posts. Theres a big difference between wanting to learn and wanting to preach. Lorenzo aint here to learn.......

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think you are right in many ways that Europes politics is corrupted just as much, only in another way, it would be done behind the curtains.


I think America is a damned fine place to live. But man, we've got some serious, serious problems. I think most other places are like that too. (First world anyways). America is just one of many countries with free people and a government and alot of problems. No better, no worse then others.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut that's probably the thing why the Chevron-deal is so outrageous to us, because it's done so openly! You lay money on the table and get what you want! That's acceptable in a supermarket for us, but not in a government which is elected by the people! That's how we see it, what's your point of view?


My view.
Example.
Lets say I had made veiled threats to you. Lets say you and I had a history of saber rattling and scare tactics.
Would you give me the kets to your house?

Well, letting a Chinese petro company take a big chunk of American oil interests just isnt good policy. I FULLY support keeping the Chinese away from our interests as much as possible without using the Canned Sunshine. No one wins when the Canned Sunshine gets opened.
By that same token we also dont share our high level stealth technology with other countries (Barring Britain. But our stealth programs started because of them so.....)
Theres a REAL advantage to being a Level 1 trade partner with America. Ask Britain. Stealth tech alone would damn near be worth it. Let alone all the other stuff.
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Unread postby Macsporan » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:42:12

What gets me is the way that these Paladins of Free Enterprise who are so eager to lecture the rest of the world about the virtues of their wonderful government-free system, are so quick to go and hide behind the skirts of their government like snivelling cry-babies when someone threatens them.

With 200 billion a years spent on corporate welfare the US isn't a Free Enterprise country, its Plutocratic Socialism.

When the rich get into trouble they get bailed out at taxpayers expense or saved by the power of the state.

When the poor get into trouble its the army or jail.

What a contemptible set-up.

How dare they preach to anyone.

They should stay home and clean up their own mess before interfering in the affairs of others.
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Unread postby Free » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:45:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')
Well, letting a Chinese petro company take a big chunk of American oil interests just isnt good policy. I FULLY support keeping the Chinese away from our interests as much as possible without using the Canned Sunshine. No one wins when the Canned Sunshine gets opened.
By that same token we also dont share our high level stealth technology with other countries (Barring Britain. But our stealth programs started because of them so.....)
Theres a REAL advantage to being a Level 1 trade partner with America. Ask Britain. Stealth tech alone would damn near be worth it. Let alone all the other stuff.



I absolutely agree with you that it is totally legitimate to protect your interests against interventions from outside. I think everybody would.

The problem with this is only that if this happens in another country, the US cries "foul" and sings the praisal of free trade (Yukos).

I and many others see this as a double standard. You can't change the rules in the middle of the game only because somebody else seems to be playing better at the current moment?

(Edit: I see this is exactly what Macsporan said. Damn, why are we Europeans always late and only in second place?)
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Re: We would call it bribing

Unread postby lorenzo » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:55:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nuhax', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', ' ')explain why Chevron can just walk into Congress, stash a few million dollars into the pockets of congressmen, telling them they should not allow CNOOC to buy Unocal, and walk out.


And where is the evidence that this occurred?


It was on CNN last night. The international version that is. Viewers in the US do not see CNNi, they have their own version.
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 23 Jul 2005, 07:59:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')
Well, letting a Chinese petro company take a big chunk of American oil interests just isnt good policy. I FULLY support keeping the Chinese away from our interests as much as possible without using the Canned Sunshine. No one wins when the Canned Sunshine gets opened.
By that same token we also dont share our high level stealth technology with other countries (Barring Britain. But our stealth programs started because of them so.....)
Theres a REAL advantage to being a Level 1 trade partner with America. Ask Britain. Stealth tech alone would damn near be worth it. Let alone all the other stuff.



I absolutely agree with you that it is totally legitimate to protect your interests against interventions from outside. I think everybody would.

The problem with this is only that if this happens in another country, the US cries "foul" and sings the praisal of free trade (Yukos).

I and many others see this as a double standard. You can't change the rules in the middle of the game only because somebody else seems to be playing better at the current moment?

(Edit: I see this is exactly what Macsporan said. Damn, why are we Europeans always late and only in second place?)


Again....Pot meet kettle.
You know how often the UN tries to dictate US policy? You know how often the UN pulls these exact same scams?
This is nothing new. People just refuse to admit the wrongdoings of their own governments.
Additionally, with the Taiwan situation being what is people should be quite glad this move was made.
The more desperate the situation the more likely to fire up the Sunshine in a Can.
Example.
Chinas tries to interfere with Taiwan claiming its indepedence. US intervenes. If the Chinese had a way to shut down or severely hamper our oil reserves and supplies we couldnt bring to bear our military force.
Only option left? Nuclear intervention. You start throwing nukes and no one wins. And we've already said on many occasions we'd step in to assist Taiwan.

And as for crying foul, explain to me why we're allowing the Chinese to come in and act as advisors on new petro projects being built? We're not saying "Bad Chinese! Go away!" We're simply saying that this proposed action would be too much of a risk to our policies and shutting it down. But certainly we're not saying the Chinese and thier business arent welcome here.

Forgot to add, dont worry Europe is first. Remember, Australia was populated from your criminals, theives and rapists. So really, Europe trumps Australia everytime.
Except in good dive sites.
However, Australias Prime Minister is a very well spoken individual. Watched the broadcast with him and Mr. Blair.

Sometimes I forget what its like to have a figrehead that can speak clearly and effectively. :lol:
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