[Ibon]

Well, I was referred to this podcast. It was riveting listening to this. It is a story all of you will find fascinating, the story of John Mclemore from Alabama. Acutely aware of our species plight, a genius. I wont say anything more not to be a spoiler.

This guy actually was a member of po.com. He only made five posts under the name Hiruit Nguyse. He mentioned this moniker on one of the podcasts so I am not revealing anything personal here.

https://stownpodcast.org/

I wont say more. It is highly entertaining, strangely familiar somehow, there are many of us here on this site who would have enjoyed sitting drinking tee with this dude.

[Tanada]

I found it on iTunes which is my preferred method as it is easier to dload episodes. Listening to part one now, NOT family friendly language. On the other hand the guy sure sounds like he belongs in the doomer chorus around these parts.

[jedrider]

The New Tribalism and the Decline of the Nation State
http://robertreich.org/post/80522686347

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e are witnessing a reversion to tribalism around the world, away from nation states. The the same pattern can be seen even in America – especially in American politics.

[Tanada]

I think people are mixing apples and oranges. Yes 'tribalism' is on the rise, but so is Nationalism vs Globalism.

From 1980-2018 the large governments of the world have tried to shove Globalism down the throats of everyone living on the planet. The problem is for Joe6P Globalism doesn't mean all the things we were promised, like a superior standard of living. It turns out Globalism actually means the richest get richer while the poorest get poorer and everyone in the middle gets drown in low quality consumer junk that often doesn't last six months from date of manufacture before needing replacement. Even worse to manufacture all this disposable junk cheaply enough to convince consumers to buy it means third world wage slaves at nearly no pay are substituted for laborers in first world countries who 50 years ago could support a large extended family on a single income. This drives first world wages for labor down into the basement disrupting the entire society by discounting the value of labor and craftsmanship.

Well despite the proclimation of how good it is for him/her Joe6P/Jane6P is not blind, deaf, dumb and stupid. Therefore they resent being talked down to and having their lives destroyed and that brings forth a kind of tribalism. If the 'leaders' are working against your interests you have no obligation to blindly follow them like whipped dogs.

On the other hand a few leader types around the world look out and see the seething anger of Joe6P/Jane6P just below the surface and realize they can rise to more powerful positions in society by offering to end the Globalism disaster and replace it with old fashioned Nationalism. In places like western countries where a sense of Nationalism existed before Globalism became the goal of the elites this strikes a chord and results in elections that baffle the elites, who are certain they are smarter, wiser, and more deserving than the rest of us.

[jedrider]

Tanada,
I don't see that, actually. Yes, there is that tension of globalism versus nationalism, but the tribal divide goes WAY beyond that. Just, way beyond, to a whole other dimension of contorting the facts and reading into documents, such as the constitution as if it is the ten commandments and whether to believe in science or a 2000 year old book, or whether the market is always right (as if capitalism was a religion). It's almost as if there are two sides to one's brain that comprehend the world in totally different modalities, but these two sides are the very same two tribes.

[Cog]

Because for our purposes, the US Constitution IS the Ten Commandments on how our government was designed to function and the limitations imposed on it. Says so right in the text:

Article VI

All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

[Plantagenet]

If you go back and read Reich's article on tribalism in jedrider's first post in this thread, it does't make much sense. Reich doesn't even know what a tribe is.

First of all, the author Robert Reich begins by applauding the historic growth of nation states and decrying the recent rise of "tribalism in Europe. The examples he picks? He decries the fall of the USSR and the troubles of the EU.

But that has nothing to with tribalism. Both had to do with a reversion to NATIONALISM, i.e. the conquered nations of eastern Europe and the USSR didn't want to be controlled and run from Moscow. They wanted to be independent nation states again. And Britain and Italy and Hungary other countries in the EU don't want to be controlled or run from Brussels....they want to retain their independence as well. The UK and Italy and Hungary aren't tribes....they are nation states.

The issues with Brexit and other EU problems isn't due to tribalism-----Its due to NATIONALISM.

Similarly, Reich is confused when he talks about the US. He decries the fact the Ds and the Rs have different political views and don't like each very much. But thats not tribalism----thats POLITICAL PARTISANSHIP.

As someone who doesn't belong to either major political parties, I don't see the Rs and the Ds as tribes. I see them as political parties. IMHO neither the R nor the D party has a monopoly on wisdom or virtue. And neither the R nor the D party is a homogenous tribe. Both are actually assemblages and coalitions of quite disparate political factions in the US. For instance the Ds incorporate poor inner city blacks and the ultra-wealthy Hollywood elite. Those two groups are definitely not in the same "tribe"....but they support the same political party. Rs include factory workers and oilfield workers....and small business owners. Again not in the same tribe...but in the same PARTY.

In order to understand things you have to know what they are. And that means using the right names and describing things accurately. Describing the current political divides in the Russia or the EU or the US as due to a rise of "tribalism" really misses the point. In particular our current political divides in the US are due to an excess of partisanship.....tribalism has nothing to do with it.

Cheers!

[jedrider]

I don't know what exactly a 'tribe' is, either, in the American context (and there are multiple tribes, obviously).

Can America Survive Tribalism?
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/amu-chua-tribalism/561662/

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n Chua’s mind, all is not lost. She argues that moving away from more tribalistic impulses starts with embracing the idea that America is a “super-group.” A super-group, per Chua, allows subgroups—Japanese Americans, for example—to maintain distinct identities. At the same time, it bonds them through some sort of “connective tissue”: in America’s case, the ideals put forth by the Constitution.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jedrider', 'I') don't know what exactly a 'tribe' is, either, in the American context (and there are multiple tribes, obviously).

[Cog]

Creating hyphenated Americans and celebrating the term is a problem in and of itself. You are an American no hyphen without reservation or you owe your allegiance to some other group or ethnic origin.

I've long been of the opinion that the question of race or ethnic origin should be stricken from every single form and document that the government is involved in. You are either an American, with all the full legal rights and responsibilities that goes along with that, or you are not.

[asg70]

Bullshit as usual from Plant. Political polarization is occuring in equal measures on both sides. The demonization of the other side really began in the right-wing with the rise of right-wing talk and Fox News. Trump is the apex of that way of thinking, amplified by the internet. But there's plenty of reason to accuse the left of overstepping itself as well so pointing to who started it doesn't really accomplish anything. We've got what we've got.

Neither side really wants truly mature statesmanship. They only want selective mudslinging. Crying foul over the other guy's tactic as Plant does is part and parcel of polarization. It simply doesn't fly to ask one side to fight fair when you're not willing to do the same. So everything continues to spiral down the cesspool towards civil war.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/opin ... rt-ii.html

If you want to know how TEOTWAWKI happens in the US, this is it. It won't be empty store-shelves that does it, it will be a sort of ideological and id-politics-based balkanization which is pretty well established now. #MeToo is showing that it's even splitting people apart on the most fundamental level of gender.

[jedrider]

I started this thread because I've starting seeing the term pop up here and there and so wanted to get a handle on what they mean by it.

A tribe delineates 'us' from 'them'. The 'super-groups' of Chua, I think, is a cope out. Tribes usually fight over the intersecting areas of interest. We seem to have lots to fight over now, internally. Republicans and Democrats, Liberals and Conservatives, however you divide them, seem to have less in common and a lot more areas of friction. There were great time spans of intersection between the groups, however you group them. That appears to be coming to an end now.

Of course, liberals forced their policies on conservatives, and conservatives resented that. Conservatives have taken to excising liberalism from their world view. The two sides no longer speak the same language and cannot understand each other. That makes for this extreme degree of tribalism we now see.

[Newfie]

Sebastian Junger wrote a book, supposedly his last, called TRIBE.

It’s an interesting read about how folks who belong to small but intensely personal groups survive trauma much better.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')ribe
trīb/Submit
noun
1.
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.

[Cog]

The Dems, who rule the urban centers, view the rest of the country as rubes, deplorables, and as those people incapable and unfit to have a voice in running the nation's affairs.

Hunger games anyone?

[jedrider]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'T')he Dems, who rule the urban centers, view the rest of the country as rubes, deplorables, and as those people incapable and unfit to have a voice in running the nation's affairs.

Hunger games anyone?

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'T')he Dems, who rule the urban centers, view the rest of the country as rubes, deplorables, and as those people incapable and unfit to have a voice in running the nation's affairs.

Hunger games anyone?

[jedrider]

Just saying:

Ex-Republican Reveals How He Finally Realized that Racism and Extremism Are Behind the GOP's Success
https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/dark-underside-conservatism-ex-republican-reveals-how-he-finally-realized-racism

Extremists must invent their only language or lingo: MAGA

[Cog]

It couldn't possibly be that people have rejected democratic socialism and the current wave of left wing violence sweeping the country. Naw it has to be those racist republicans at work again.

The left still hasn't figured out why their message of class and racial division continues to get rejected by the voters.

[Cog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'T')he Dems, who rule the urban centers, view the rest of the country as rubes, deplorables, and as those people incapable and unfit to have a voice in running the nation's affairs.

Hunger games anyone?

[Newfie]

OK, posters are not going to talk about throwing people out of helicopters or similar actions. Posts will be deleted and the poster given a holiday.

Cog, you’ve been in a bender to arouse folks, you are trolling. It’s not helpful to civil discourse. It is the mode of someone who has lost any useful means to contribute.