[KaiserJeep]

Doubtless, that is why the USA is the wealthiest nation, with the highest average income of any large country, with a better environmental record than any other large country. That would also be why there is a long line of refugees trying to sneak over the border, and why we set the Russian and European teeth on edge.

GHung, if you are not a fan of this country we live in, understand that as a citizen of the USA you have the freedom to move elsewhere. Try doing that in Cuba or China or Vietnam or North Korea or Laos, the five places where they still revere the teachings of those two clueless idiots Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

But BOTH of you, onlooker and GHung, have what you have because you live in a country that has successfully practiced Capitalism for almost 250 years. You have a share of that wealth, and use the infrastructure created by that wealth, every day of your life. That would include the information network we are exchanging today's pleasentries on, a creation of the latest wave of the Industrial Revolution, the so-called Digital Age. BTW, that Digital Age also created five of the eight wealthiest people in the world, and enabled ME with my BSEE degree to earn about a million bucks in my career.

You see, I have a problem with people who not only don't appreciate what they have, but don't even acknowledge what they have, or understand it is because of where they live and Capitalism.

[GHung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'D')oubtless, that is why the USA is the wealthiest nation, with the highest average income of any large country, with a better environmental record than any other large country. That would also be why there is a long line of refugees trying to sneak over the border, and why we set the Russian and European teeth on edge.

GHung, if you are not a fan of this country we live in, understand that as a citizen of the USA you have the freedom to move elsewhere. Try doing that in Cuba or China or Vietnam or North Korea or Laos, the five places where they still revere the teachings of those two clueless idiots Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

But BOTH of you, onlooker and GHung, have what you have because you live in a country that has successfully practiced Capitalism for almost 250 years. You have a share of that wealth, and use the infrastructure created by that wealth, every day of your life. That would include the information network we are exchanging today's pleasentries on, a creation of the latest wave of the Industrial Revolution, the so-called Digital Age. BTW, that Digital Age also created five of the eight wealthiest people in the world, and enabled ME with my BSEE degree to earn about a million bucks in my career.

You see, I have a problem with people who not only don't appreciate what they have, but don't even acknowledge what they have, or understand it is because of where they live and Capitalism.

[onlooker]

And I do appreciate what I have. I also realize that is too some degree that is because we live in an exploiting country. So feeling bad for those in other countries being exploited, is NOT being ungrateful. It is being humane.

[mmasters]

The world isn't made to be fair or a paradise, that is a delusion. It's always been a mess and always will be. The underlying reason is we're here to be tested.

Best use the good times to make something of yourself and prepare for when things get ugly.

[KaiserJeep]

GHung, I cooled down for a few minutes before typing this. I never told anybody to "STFU" and you saying that I did, is YOU LYING. I said that I have a problem with people criticising the USA, and that's a fact.

I also served this country and think it is the finest in the world. You do not, you find criticism is warranted, and as you said, that is your right. So be critical all you want. Me, I'm grateful for what I have, and do tend to overlook the warts.

onlooker, I also have compassion. I would like to point out that the USA gives more in foriegn aid than anybody else, including food, medical aid, and civil engineering. So you would be criticizing the one country that does the most for the others. BTW, buying oil, plastic crap from China, or fruits and meats grown in other countries doesn't mean that the USA is "exploiting" them, it means that we are trading with them, sending money their way. If that money is not fairly distributed to those who did the labor, it is not our fault. There ARE movements in the USA to buy 'Fair Trade Coffee" and to NOT buy "Blood Diamonds", to name just two.

[radon1]

Lots of confusion here. Capitalism has been successful in 2 countries only: initially in Britain, and later in the US. The other countries did not develop capitalism, they joined the US market.

Socialism has also been successful, and only once - in the USSR, partly due to the pure luck in timing. China was too late.

That is, assuming that we define "success" as a development of a sustainably functional economy that delivered benefits to the participants unachievable in another way.

Russia (USSR), for example, would not have been able to raise living standards of the population to the extent that it did, if the country had developed along the "natural" capitalist lines.

[KaiserJeep]

You have an extraordinarily narrow definition of Capitalism. I believe that when the predecessor to the Silk Road was concieved of in the Bronze Age, that wealthy merchant who invested in camels and armed guards to protect his caravans between China and Europe, was a Capitalist. The man who invented metallic coins as a symbol of wealth was a Capitalist. The man who invested in the first wooden ships to ply the Mediterannean Sea loaded with amphorae filled with olive oil was a Capitalist. Those who derived the rules of inernational banking were Capitalists.

Capitalism exists today in over 200 countries in variations defined by individual laws, tax policies, banking regulations, trade treaties, etc. etc. But it got it's start when the flints that made the best spears and axe heads were traded across Europe by Neanderthals.

Capitalism did not have a name before Karl Marx. But he did not understand the nature of mankind when he invented the word. Female baboons who trade sex for ripe fruit are Capitalists. Capitalism existed long before it was named. But the 200-odd countries all try to devise advantages by tweeking the rules. But even before language, Capitalism existed, as it does in a baboon troop.

[radon1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'Y')ou have an extraordinarily narrow definition of Capitalism. I believe that when the predecessor to the Silk Road was concieved of in the Bronze Age, that wealthy merchant who invested in camels and armed guards to protect his caravans between China and Europe, was a Capitalist.

[KaiserJeep]

Well, where are the rules for "Capitalism" written down, then? You and I seem to have very different definitions. I am at my vacation home, but we have been playing Scrabble for the past nights, using a massive Webster's New 20th Century Dictionary, Unabridged, copyright 1960. It says:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Capitalism - n. 1. The economic system in which all or most of the means of production and distribution, as land, factories, railroads, etc. are privately owned and operated for profit, originally under fully competitive conditions: it has generally been characterised by a tendancy towards concentration of wealth, and, in it's later phase, by the growth of great corporations, increased governmental control, etc.
2. The principles, methods, interest, power, influence, etc. of capitalists, especially of those with large holdings.
3. The state of being a capitalist.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', '.')... and I have a problem with Americans like you who don't understand our duty to challenge the system they are a part of when they feel it could be better....

[KaiserJeep]

Well, then YOU need to clearly distinguish between "this country" and everything else in this rambling and incoherent thread.

I have no problem distinguishing (figurative) warts on most politicians, including Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.

I am well aware of the abuses of corporations and wealthy individuals, but that doesn't mean that "capitalism" is flawed or needs replacement. For example, I have studied History and believe that ALL of the four-dozen-odd attempts at Marxism - including especially the USSR, which came the closest to succeeding - collapsed due to corruption, because they lacked the controls imposed by the governments on businesses, and by the people on governments, that characterize modern Capitalistic Democracies.

If you want to focus on the details, I will happily do so. However, if you want to satisfy juvenile urges and express your frustration with an economic system that insists and requires that you to exercise sound judgement and hard work to succeed, then expect me to verbally whack you back in return.

Because we really and trully do have the best world with the most prosperous people that has ever existed, and things are improving slowly over time. They simply are not improving as fast as peoples' individual wants and desires for "more stuff", while working less.

Well, too bad, so sad.

[GHung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'K')J said; ...." and things are improving slowly over time...."

[KaiserJeep]

If you are not satisfied with your lot in life, then by all means you are free to politic for changes. However, the system we has protects all of us, capitalists and laborers, the same way. If you can rouse a majority you can vote for legislation to benefit yourself, or for politicians that represent your interests.

If all you want to do is to complain in an online internet forum, I'll note that it is both useless and a waste of time. Most people including me disagree with you, and will say so. We probably do agree that deficit spending is not something the US Government should be doing, I would like to see that rolled back and even see the National Debt start getting paid down.

This thread is about Capitalism, and I keep trying to steer it back to that topic. I happen to believe that things are slowly improving across the USA. For many people - including probably you - things are not improving for you as rapidly as you would wish.

Now my wealthy capitalist ass must get itself up and go outside and trim some trees and then demolish and pile up the father-in-law's decaying chicken coop. We just put the grandkids on a plane yesterday, and they are home in their own beds. Hopefuly I can accomplish the last few chores without getting in the Poison Oak that seems to have replaced the blueberries I remember growing on this lot.

[GHung]

"If you are not satisfied with your lot in life...."

Since KJ starts his list of false assumptions and inferences assuming we aren't "satisfied with our lot in life", I can be sure he has no coherent argument, especially regarding my counter to his absurd conclusion that "things are getting better". He said upthread that he never told me to STFU, but his posts boil down to that.

Everything I said in my previous post is true, KJ, and whether or not I'm "satisfied" has no bearing on those things at all. Reality doesn't give a shit if you or I are happy.

Your version of "capitalism' is an illusion because it is not paying it's own way, no more than someone who is living large on a growing credit card balance is "successful", regardless of how things appear on the surface. If you want me to join in on the pretense, that ain't going to happen..

Enjoy your poison oak. They have a special glyphosate formula for that.

[onlooker]

Well, whatever the benefits and virtues of Capitalism and its vices and deleterious effects seems to be now a sub -plot. A sub-plot of the achievements and successes of our species which now in fact have become an extraordindary danger to everything our species has created and our very existence. Our ability to grow in numbers, to develop ever more and higher technology, to raise standards of living of more people are in fact now threatening our hegemony and perhaps very existence on this planet. So if one argues Capitalism made all this possible, well then one must also concede that it has also paved the way for this epic crisis we now face.

[KaiserJeep]

My argument has always been, there is no thing and no person to blame, unless you believe in a literal Mother Nature. We are what we are and we behave as we behave, because we evolved a set of instincts to do that.

[GHung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'M')y argument has always been, there is no thing and no person to blame, unless you believe in a literal Mother Nature. We are what we are and we behave as we behave, because we evolved a set of instincts to do that.

[KaiserJeep]

Certainly I have made such choices. But by and large we behave instinctively, unless there is a reason not to.

[mmasters]

So what do you propose, GHung, we come up with a system that mirrors your mom's nurturing? Sounds like Socialism.

[GHung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'S')o what do you propose, GHung, we come up with a system that mirrors your mom's nurturing? Sounds like Socialism.