[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', 'J')eez, O_S, don't confuse Cog with pragmatic arguments. He needs his value/judgement-based world view just to exist.

[SeaGypsy]

There's plenty of places with no effective government, I've lived in some. There's upsides & down. Getting away with murder. Being murdered by someone who will get away with it. That's just to start with.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', 'I') think any POer would be for Trump tariffs. Bringing back the jobs and the products from overseas makes not only for a better product in many cases but the US is less vulnerable/dependent on other countries and more self sufficient. It's a better scenario post peak.

[onlooker]

Globalization is a dream come true for Capitalism. So all you defenders of Capitalism its NOT so nice when you are the exploited rather than the exploiter eh? Speaking to those especially in the US

[Cog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'G')lobalization is a dream come true for Capitalism. So all you defenders of Capitalism its NOT so nice when you are the exploited rather than the exploiter eh? Speaking to those especially in the US

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'G')lobalization is a dream come true for Capitalism.

[KaiserJeep]

The truth would be that it is robot labor producing Tesla cars. When Tesla replicates an existing production line in China, the actual numbers of Chinese human jobs created would be about a quarter of those created over here where the production of that vehicle design was prototyped and developed. Then shortly following that we will have sold tens of thousands of Tesla automobiles in China, using up a solid chunk of their total Lithium production, and avoiding tariffs that would have been applied to American-made vehicles imported to China, along with much of our own Lithium. We win and they lose, they would have ripped off the design for both the vehicle and the manufacturing robotic production line without any compensation had we not done this.

Get a clue. The Chinese are the gangsters of the world, and they lost this round to the Americans.

You need to quit thinking about unskilled production line jobs. Human labor for those types of jobs was replaced by assembly line robots years ago. The UAW's back was broken by digital automation, not by politics. Unskilled human labor in all forms is going obsolete everywhere. The only people who benefit from vehicle production in today's world are skilled laborers and those who own the means of production.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'G')lobalization is a dream come true for Capitalism.

[onlooker]

Kaiser, the US is playing a dangerous game with this trade war with China and China as well. They both stand to lose

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') While rare earths aren’t actually that rare — there are more REEs in the ground than copper or lead — they are extremely difficult to mine economically. China has dominated rare earth mining since the 1990s, extracting 85 to 95 percent of the world’s REEs from large clay deposits in the country’s south. When China cut back sharply on REE exports in 2010, it triggered a global price spike, exposing the superpower’s monopolistic grip on materials that are critical to dozens of high-tech industries. Now a Chinese-led coalition threatens to further tighten control of the rare earths trade with the purchase of the only operational REE mine in America

[KaiserJeep]

Nobody knows that better than me, who used to design products using electronic components produced with REEs. But REEs are rare not becuase of abundance issues, rather because so much bulk material must be processed to recover usable amounts of those REEs. Their production consumes copious amounts of energy and produces widespread environmental devastation.

Having China producing REEs is similar to fighting a ground war on their soil.

[Cog]

North Korea has plenty of rare earth minerals. Just saying.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'K')aiser, the US is playing a dangerous game with this trade war with China and China as well. They both stand to lose

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') While rare earths aren’t actually that rare — there are more REEs in the ground than copper or lead — they are extremely difficult to mine economically. China has dominated rare earth mining since the 1990s, extracting 85 to 95 percent of the world’s REEs from large clay deposits in the country’s south. When China cut back sharply on REE exports in 2010, it triggered a global price spike, exposing the superpower’s monopolistic grip on materials that are critical to dozens of high-tech industries. Now a Chinese-led coalition threatens to further tighten control of the rare earths trade with the purchase of the only operational REE mine in America

[evilgenius]

I think there is some confusion within this thread over the role of the worker under capitalism. They are a cost. Their humanity, and whatever plight, doesn't automatically give them some element of either control or ownership. They are just as close to any capitalist as your average homeless person is to you. You can choose via compassion to help. They can too. That's what you're left with, unless you want to modify capitalism.

There are many forms of capitalism. Ours prefers lower taxes and lower costs. It gravitates toward lower cost marketing. It does that because the power of people spending money moves everything. In America people dedicate their money to where they have to survive, and that is within a narrow context defined by their jobs and family. Most people live like serfs. Their decisions are made for them. Only taking risk is an acceptable means of getting an edge, and simply getting by relying upon the largess of your employer is not risk taking. Staying in place and changing to meet the demands of your employer is not risk taking. Other forms of capitalism may use taxation in order to enforce a different balance, giving workers more power but also entertaining the idea of class inherent to an actor in the system. That is, those other forms toy with thinking about people as members of groups. It's a different way than the ruggedly individualistic way of America.

The real appeal of Trump is his use of American mythology to explain where people are as a result of not waking up to their common plight and keeping up the fight on an individual basis. It's ok to organize over some conspiracy theorist notion regarding the BLM, but don't you individuals dare recognize your common plight and organize over your labor. That's anathema to a rugged individual. And, for God's sake, don't organize over other class related issues. The commonality in America has a very thin definition. It is the definition given us by our form of capitalism, and our reluctance to let go of what it was like in the little borough we came from. We identify with those who came up around us. We don't really care about outsiders to that group, unless they come offering jobs. Because we all want to get rich, whatever the rich want to do with their money has to be sacrosanct. We don't want a well oiled and properly working machine that distributes resources according to need. We want wealth. Those who don't have it will have to rely upon charity. Trump allows us to keep thinking that way rather than wake up. He uses these arguments from when I was a kid, fearing trade instead of telling the people like it is. He doesn't want to tell them that their not finding work is not because they were outperformed by some off-shored worker, but because (from the capitalist point of view) they are afraid to take actual risk.

[Newfie]

The only difference is that I don’t see Hillary or the D’s or the R’s as substantially different. They may make some noise but damn little action. I think you give Trump too much power in this regard.

But otherwise a good and interesting analysis.

[Cog]

evilgenius said:

"We don't want a well oiled and properly working machine that distributes resources according to need."

You are right. We don't want communism. Your needs are not my concern. They are of your concern alone. If your needs are not being met, then you need to figure out the best way to achieve them. It is not the role of government to supply your needs, wants, or desires.

[Pops]

Great rant Evil!

Spot on in your description of capitalism and it's central part of our class structure. The Invisible Hand of Smith was all about selfish aims benefiting society, which was all well and good when we were all bakers and harness makers. But as KJ notes, capital doesn't distinguish between human resources and other forms of production.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')It's ok to organize over some conspiracy theorist notion regarding the BLM, but don't you individuals dare recognize your common plight and organize over your labor.

[ralfy]

Collapse for capitalist systems is inevitable for two reasons: the need to profit, and to maximize that in light of competition, eventually leads to increasing amounts of credit created and running after limited resources, of which exploitation is also maximized. The result is a combination of economic instability due to rising debt coupled with a resource crunch, with financial speculation only making matters worse.

The second reason involves pollution created as resources are used, and which increases as more people worldwide need and want to use more resources, leading to ecological collapse and the effects of global warming.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'C')ollapse for capitalist systems is inevitable for two reasons: the need to profit, and to maximize that in light of competition, eventually leads to increasing amounts of credit created and running after limited resources.... The result is a combination of economic instability due to rising debt .... with financial speculation only making matters worse.

[Newfie]

Plant,

Sort of a divergent thought but....Capitalisim is often said to be a reflection of humanity, our collective personality. I wonder if it could be said that humanity itself will go into recession or depression, decreasing in numbers, cleaninag away populations that can’t compete.

Just a rumination.

[onlooker]

Kaiser says, that Capitalism is a natural outgrowth of our primate urges and impulses. I don't disagree with that. So, you can say at this point it is quite obvious that these traits and the economic system that embodies them is maladaptive for our species. Even if once they were useful. Tanada states, that we can channel them in a productive manner. Reminds me of the Vulcans in Star Trek, who committed to suppresing their emotions when confronted with their pernicious influence. So, what can be done in this respect?