[Newfie]

Just so you know, I hold no grudge against the immigrants, they are doing what makes sense to them. My beef is with the US government.

But the thread is generally about being a hypocrit. And I think this government is being hypocritical by letting citizens go to waste while making false promises to non citizens.

[Ibon]

Regarding policy Cog brought up a guest worker program as being sorely needed as part of the solution to resolve undocumented immigrants. I would agree. For the past decades regardless of administration we have turned a blind eye to undocumented immigrants allowing this "informal" part of our economy to flourish. This represented a tacit support which is what allowed these 15 plus million immigrants to enter "informally". Since we are discussing hypocrisy you can't really call an immigrant illegal when government policy actually encouraged this for decades.

Undocumented immigrants hang in limbo sometimes for decades because of this failed policy. It is as much a disservice to them as it is to the burden this places on US citizens although I still believe the presence of the undocumented in the USA has been a net benefit to the country. That can be debated of course. This thread started with one of our most militant anti "illegal immigrant" members here recognizing one of those benefits.

On a related topic have you noticed that whether you discuss climate change negotiations, immigration, peak oil, energy, economics or any of the many other macro problematic issues of human overshoot it seems we usually end these threads concluding that our government is a failure.

Of course our government is a failure, this is not something to be fixed, because fixing this only maintains the resilience of that which is dysfunctional. Our pathway out of this mess goes more in the direction of government continuing to fail. If you notice with every administration you say to yourself, this is the most dysfunctional government I have ever seen. And then the next one comes along and low and behold we plunge deeper into incompetence, exponential dysfunction in fact.

My intuition tells me we are on the right path

[Newfie]

Why I gave up voting. Im supporting a dysfunctional system.

On the other hand I let my wife direct my absentee ballot, so yup, I’m a hypocrit.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y intuition tells me we are on the right path

[evilgenius]

You know the solutions to these issues are pretty simple. And they don't have to come with outright deportation. First of all, tax transfer payments out of the country by non-citizens something like 30%. Make an exception for anyone who is merely transferring money to their personal accounts overseas, but they have to prove that's what they are doing or the money stays. Also, make it so that the transferred money has to sit for a period of time before it can operate in the foreign country. If someone is convicted of transferring money for a non-citizen and they weren't born here, then they can lose their citizenship if the court decides so. Since a 30% tax is a big thing, they wouldn't want to do that. They can sneak back in, but then they'd have to pay.

Secondly, make the citizenship process more transparent. How does a person become a citizen? Do they get their foot in the door because they are related to someone who is already a citizen? Do they get in because they have something to offer? There are problems with both approaches. The best solution may be to simply have attainable requirements put in place. Everyone who meets the standard gets in. You can set the standard wherever you want. I think it ought to, at least, include English proficiency, a thorough understanding of American civics, a background check and a waiting period. And citizenship gained this way should be revocable under certain conditions, but only for a certain number of years. If you get into trouble with certain countries, then make it a requirement that people from those countries must renounce that country's citizenship before they can become a US citizen. Then do something about where people locate when they get here. Let them chose from a list of places where they are needed, and make it so that they have to live there for a period before they can relocate. If they don't comply, they're gone.

By the way, Cog, I don't necessarily think you are a hypocrite, but I do think you don't understand what free will is. At its heart, free will is the adoption of behaviors based upon what a person reasons their principles to be. It's that you believe something, so you act accordingly. It's not as simple as willing to raise your hand at a certain time and because you willed it your hand raised. It isn't about choice. What you've done is to engage in the evolutionary paradigm of supply and demand thinking instead. You've simply opted for what works over what you believe. When that happens you have a choice. You can re-think what you believe, or abandon the notion that what you believe is important, or forgive yourself and continue as before (only now with guarded optimism rather than pure emotion sustaining it). Now, maybe, you can see why the love of money, not money itself, is the root of all evil?

[evilgenius]

Sorry if what I said above sounds like I am accusing you of something, Cog. I was just trying to say that you aren't a fanatic. The fact that confronting the real world calls your principles into question, makes you wonder if a line has been crossed but you still give yourself leeway, means you don't adhere to those principles fanatically. Maybe if they had been working on your neighbor's roof you would have called some agency, I don't know? They were working on your roof, however, and you were personally aware of the economics of the situation. You gave them water. That could only have come from knowing what the work is like. I doubt very much this instance will have changed your mind concerning the sojourner in your land, but it seems to have taken the hardness off the edge. That implies an interest in a sort of fairness on your part, over lumping everyone into the same boat regardless of their intentions or circumstances.

[Cog]

@evilgenius I did not take it that way so no worries.

I suppose if I had been true to my convictions about illegal immigration, I could have been upfront with any roofing contractor about my desire to only have American citizens working on my roof. Honestly, it never crossed my mind. I wonder if any contractor would have even bid on the job if that was my requirements. Don't know. Given what I have seen lately, doing construction around here, they pretty much all seem to be Hispanic. That doesn't mean they are here illegally though, but the odds are likely they are.

On a deeper level, it bothers me that the contractor, who is as white and redneck as me, might be abusing these guys with not paying overtime, insurance, or any of the other things he would have to pay an American citizen. You know that happens to a lot of illegals. There has to be a better way. Some way to respect our borders and rule of law and also protects these guys from employers who will abuse them.

I don't like the fact there are people roaming around America with no legal status. Some of them are up to no good or they displace Americans from doing work because they will do it for a lot less. So ripe for abuse by everyone involved in this.

[Newfie]

“There has to be a better way.”

Absolutely, it’s no mystery. Yet our government can’t find it. Why?

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '�')��There has to be a better way.”

Absolutely, it’s no mystery. Yet our government can’t find it. Why?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', '@')evilgenius I did not take it that way so no worries.

I suppose if I had been true to my convictions about illegal immigration, I could have been upfront with any roofing contractor about my desire to only have American citizens working on my roof. Honestly, it never crossed my mind. I wonder if any contractor would have even bid on the job if that was my requirements. Don't know. Given what I have seen lately, doing construction around here, they pretty much all seem to be Hispanic. That doesn't mean they are here illegally though, but the odds are likely they are.

On a deeper level, it bothers me that the contractor, who is as white and redneck as me, might be abusing these guys with not paying overtime, insurance, or any of the other things he would have to pay an American citizen. You know that happens to a lot of illegals. There has to be a better way. Some way to respect our borders and rule of law and also protects these guys from employers who will abuse them.

I don't like the fact there are people roaming around America with no legal status. Some of them are up to no good or they displace Americans from doing work because they will do it for a lot less. So ripe for abuse by everyone involved in this.

[Newfie]

Not about immigration but about the difficulties of identifying what is and is not the right thing to do.

I’m reading some history, this is an old book with a much nearer perspective and I read something I never heard before. This was listed among the principal reason for the French Revolution under odious pressure on the peoples.

“These evils were so great, that general discontent prevailed among the middle and lower classes through the kingdom. The agricultural population was fettered by game laws and odious privileges to the aristocracy. "Game of the most destructive kind, such as wild boars and herds of deer, were permitted to go at large through spacious districts, in order that the nobles might hunt as in a savage wilderness." Numerous edicts prohibited weeding, lest young partridges should be disturbed, and mowing of hay even, lest their eggs should be destroyed.”

Today we have debate about protecting sage grouse and other endangered species. Ha I then the landed gentry were de facto conservationist without knowing it. Today we understand wha lt we are doing but callously further endangering these species.

Who are the hypocrite: now or then. Perhaps both?

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '�')��There has to be a better way.”

Absolutely, it’s no mystery. Yet our government can’t find it. Why?

[KaiserJeep]

Nobody much commented upon my earlier discussion of stolen SSN's. These are a severe problem in the Western states. Many employers demand SSN's, which is why they are stolen by illegals. They then max out their deductions to minimize the amount witheld by the employer, then just walk away from the rest, never filing a tax return. The person whose number was stolen cannot file a valid return because of the extra income reported against his SSN for which he cannot get a W4. Once he has waited for 10+ years, he is eligible to apply for a new SSN, and start a new credit history. Meanwhile, he has spent a decade where his employer, the state, the feds, and many other parties consider him a tax cheat, and where his credit is limited and suspect.

Even if the stolen SSN is the only crime (other than the border crossing) committed by an illegal, it is anything but a victimless crime.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'A') guest worker program, with extreme penalties for those who hire or employ people who are not part of that program, would be most beneficial.

[Cog]

Therein lies the hypocrisy of both the Democrats and Republicans in this affair. There is a Republican House and Senate with a willing president. You could make it so egregious to hire an illegal, destroy a company who did so and seize all of their assets, that no company would ever do it. But what is the reality? An ICE raid that deport a few score of people, the company gets a big fine, and then back to business as usual again.

Both R's And D's play this game for different reasons. Instead of sitting down and coming up with a logical guest worker program, with protection for the guest workers, we continue to shelter companies who exploit the labor of illegals. We get the MS-13 gangs, the identity theft, the illegal voting. The essential part of this is the companies who hire illegals, knowing full well they are illegals. Our DOJ has no problem seizing assets of drug runners but they do not use the law against the major employers of illegals.

[Newfie]

Exactly Cog, exactly.

Frankly I think there is a very reasonable path forward that neither party is willing to embrace.

Allow EXISTING illegals some path forward towards citizenship
Develop a national citizenship data base, just like European countries
Increase the minimum wage
Slam employers hiring illegals
Slam the borders shut to illegals
Develop a rational and reasonable immigration policy.

By all reason this should be an attractive bipartisan effort.

I’ll vote for the person that supports this or some similar plan, no matter which party.

[evilgenius]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'E')xactly Cog, exactly.

Frankly I think there is a very reasonable path forward that neither party is willing to embrace.

Allow EXISTING illegals some path forward towards citizenship
Develop a national citizenship data base, just like European countries
Increase the minimum wage
Slam employers hiring illegals
Slam the borders shut to illegals
Develop a rational and reasonable immigration policy.

By all reason this should be an attractive bipartisan effort.

I’ll vote for the person that supports this or some similar plan, no matter which party.

[asg70]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '
')That obstacle might be a gang coming in from the wrong neighborhood.

[Newfie]

Well maybe I’m the hypocrite.

Our 1998 Isuzu Trooper has finally bitten the dust. I need a “new” car. Being terribly cheap I’ve scoured craigslist and come up with my next vehicle. A 2010 Nissan Pathfinder. Terrible gas mileage, but we can carry some furniture to our cabin in Newfoundland and once there I can fit a generator, welder, and argon bottle in the back so I can do some work on the boat.

It gets about 15mpg but I’m only using it 4 months a year that’s like 45mpg in dirt dweller terms right? And I’ve got that bit of forest land sequestering my share of carbon and a bit. So that’s like having an indulgence so maybe I won’t go to hell after all.

I think I would need something like 3 or 4 Prius’ to carry the same load.