[Aedo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'S')o, since you know it takes longer to stop I've got an idea. Adjust your driving! But no, rather then accept personal responsibility for their actions (Including thier driving) people would rather blame the car. "It doesnt stop as fast, so i wrecked!". Funny. I see it as you were driving to close and couldnt stop in time, type of vehicle be damned.
Its called common sense. I dunno why, because it aint so common anymore.

[stepka]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ust saw this thread - glad you are OK! Bit sad that most of the comments have been of the "you are now evil and must get rid of the SUV at all costs" type.

[Roy]

<rant>
One thing no one has mentioned in this thread, that is another BAD thing about SUVs
Pollution. The average full sized SUV puts out 2-3 times the greenhouse gasses of the average car.
So, for every Suburban you see on the road (full sized "light trucks" make up at least 50% of personal vehicles here) you see people not only using 2-3 times as much fuel as a car for personal transport, you also see double to triple the pollution relative to cars.
But hey, its a free country. I drive a sedan than makes roughly 265 hp from a 214 cubic inch engine (3.5L) than gets almost 30 mpg at 75 mph and averages 25 mpg in town.
Its roomy enough for three car seats abreast in the back seat, or two car seats and an adult, with a large trunk.

So many young parents I know think they "need" an SUV once they have a kid. Most buyers believe the marketing hype of safety.
Just like the tobacco companies in the 50's -- Cigarrettes are good for you, and Here's Mickey Mantle talking about how they make him a better ball player. Uh huh.
Truth in advertising alright. Most people either don't have the inclination or attention span to really research a product before they buy it. If they did, I would venture that SUV sales would be reduced to people who actually use their hauling/.towing characteristics.
Does anyone remember just how cool an '84 Suburban was back in '84?
I do. NOT COOL. Very few were sold because the only people who bought them needed them. I worked for a guy that had one. Pickup trucks were similar in that they were used for work, not personal transportation in lieu of a car.

Now pickups are more carlike than ever. Wussified... Most new quad cab pickups have beds that barely fit a mountain bike, much less a sheet of plywood. My 82 Ford is a good example of an old truck. Single cab, bench seat, one speaker radio, no AC, and wonder of wonders, an 8' bed that can carry a sheet of plywood with the tailgate up.
I let friends who own new pickups borrow it from time to time. Why? Because their new Z71 offroad heavy duty trucks don't have room in the bed for their work, or because they're afraid of scratching their $30000+ truck. They just can't get over a truck that is actually effective for its intended purpose. Work.
In my mind, a truck need not be pretty, just rugged, practical, and simple.
For the truck/car crowd, we used to have Rancheros and El Caminos. I;ve had one of each. Even those had larger beds than most new pickups. Why were those discontinued? CAFE and poor sales. In Australia, I believe Ford still makes one, the Falcon Ute I believe its called.

My point: most folks buy these things so people will think they are sporty and tough. Ooooh, big tough F250 powerstroke (with a 4-6 foot bed nearly useless for hauling anything) I lost count of the number of full sized suvs that need a bike rack just to haul a mountain bike (just like my Jetta and my Altima).
In this country, image is everything, and the hauling and off road capabilities of most of these large vehicles is just that, an image.
True off road vehicles are much smaller than the average FX4/Z71. The old Toyota Landcruisers, Rangerovers, Ford Broncos, Jeep CJs, even Suzuki Samurais are all good off roaders. They're also narrow and have short wheelbases that keep them from high-centering. The vast majority of these off road package trucks never see anything beyond a dirt road, on which my fwd altima does just fine.

A friend of mine has an F250 quad cab with 38" tires and a 12" lift. It attracts attention because it looks like a monster truck. Off road, it sucks. Too damn big to fit down most trails, and very easy to get stuck in mud becuase its so heavy. 10 mpg is another drawback.
Does the fact that he is 5'3"/110 lbs play into his decision to buy this monster? In my mind it does. Big truck syndrome. Look how tough I am with my BIG TRUCK.
He's just one of many infected by this disease. Expensive fuel will be the castor oil that cures these folks eventually.
Its just a shame that people squander an invaluable resource and pollute much more than necessary just to project/support an image of themselves.
</rant>

[Specop_007]

I agree with everything Roy said, with one clarifier.
You can still get pickups with the fullsize bed. Thing is, most people in the city dont go the full size bed route because "What do I need a bad for?"

My grandfather own s a Chevy 2500HD. Extended cab, full size bed. Its a LONG truck. He doesnt live in the city, and hes probably driven more cattle then most of us have even seen.
He USES a pickup.

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy were those discontinued? CAFE and poor sales

[stepka]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')oes anyone remember just how cool an '84 Suburban was back in '84?

I do. NOT COOL. Very few were sold because the only people who bought them needed them. I worked for a guy that had one. Pickup trucks were similar in that they were used for work, not personal transportation in lieu of a car.

[stepka]

Oops, another thing--I think I read somewhere that more fuel is used in the manufacture of a vehicle than is ever used to propel it. Will you tech types tell me if this is true?

And if it is, then I imagine that an SUV uses more fuel in it's manufacture than smaller cars, and the effect of this fad is very bad. I thought this in the 90s during the stock market boom when everyone was behaving like there is no tomorrow, and gas was cheap, and people just thought it would go on forever. HELLO. And the states must have made huge bucks on the runup of the market, but did any of them save some of it for a rainy day? Now they're all broke. Idiots. Anyone who's ever taken a basic economics class (or who just has good horse sense), knows that the market has cycles, and I would guess that most politicians have taken basic economics. Rant over...

Anyone who drives an SUV wouldn't be much of an environmentalist I guess, but we have always bought used cars, so we wouldn't contribute to the environmental costs of manufacture anyway.

[mgibbons19]

SUVs aren't a fad. They are station wagons. Be careful what one wishes for. CAFE standards drove station wagons out of the market. Families still needed familiy cars. It was only a matter of time before somebody said "I'll bet we could put cupholders in that there delivery van and sell it - it goes by truck fuel standards!. So, non-market driven fuel regulations get rid of one pulluting option for families, only to be replaced by bigger, heavier trucks in the long run; essentially a different market solution.

And as for offroad, I was in college in 1990, and who was it that was running around in offroad boots, offroad sandals? Who wore offroad parkas for wintertime? Who was it brought internal frame packs to class for their schoolbags? It was the NorthFace-Kelty-Patagonia crowd. Essentially the ppl that grewup and decided offroad was for them, noteverybody else.

It's been said elsewhere on this board. The problem is not the trucks, it's not the cars. ITS THE SYSTEM THAT REQUIRES WE DRIVE TO DO EVERYTHING. In an infrastructure that demands every single responsible citizen drive 10-100 miles a day, it doesn't matter shit what you drive.

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ops, another thing--I think I read somewhere that more fuel is used in the manufacture of a vehicle than is ever used to propel it. Will you tech types tell me if this is true?

[stepka]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's been said elsewhere on this board. The problem is not the trucks, it's not the cars. ITS THE SYSTEM THAT REQUIRES WE DRIVE TO DO EVERYTHING. In an infrastructure that demands every single responsible citizen drive 10-100 miles a day, it doesn't matter shit what you drive.

[The_Toecutter]

Endless expansion of roads is murder on the environment. It would be nice if the public lands were kept public, and not given off for virtually free to the companies that seek to exploit it. We're at the point where highways are starting to cost more than good rail systems, yet due to vested interests(big oil, auto industry, ect.), this country keeps forcing car reliance. I can't stand the oil and auto industry. I absoluelty needed a car for transportation(college 15 miles away), so I bought used, and I hope to convert the older and racier of the two cars I own to electric and ditch the other one. I try to use a bike for all transport < 4 miles from home, but all these idiot SUV drivers going 40+ in 25 zones make that very dangerous.

[Heineken]

SUV sales are soaring as Ford and GM offer "employee discounts for everyone." Perhaps you've noticed the blizzard of commercials showing monster vehicles clambering over rocks and streams, with nary another car in sight. Is this the sort of message we should be sending Americans and others as the price of gas continues to soar? Are we crazy or what? The United States now has a fleet of millions of giant gas guzzlers running up against the brick wall of $3 gas prices and maybe much higher prices well within the operating lives of these vehicles. Can deeply indebted Americans even afford to replace these vehicles, especially if they prove to be unsellable?

[mgibbons19]

No they cannot afford it.

And I don't know how the car makers can afford giving away their stock, effectively saturating the market, when they are already stretched thin. Except that I got a free "An American Revolution" t-shirt from a Chevy promotion, I cannot see this as a good thing at all.

The revolution, of course, will not be motorized.

[JoeW]

These companies are doing what is in their best interests: Unload the gas-guzzling inventory while they can to a public dumb enough to buy it! Then when they can't afford the gas, they will be back in a couple years to trade it for a more sensible car. In a few years the economical cars will be the big-profit vehicles for automakers.

It's called built-in obsolescence, and manufacturers have been doing it to consumers for years. No big surprise here.

[aflurry]

When the ARM adjusts it'll be quite a bit nicer living in an SUV than a Honda Insight.

[pup55]

Ironically, this actually causes a lot of problems for the auto companies too.

GM is the worst case, but Ford and Chrysler have it just as bad. Look at it from their point of view:

You had a lot of excess inventory. GM had their debt downgraded and there was talk of bankruptcy for awhile. They decided to cut the price and get these behemoths out the door.

So it worked. Now you have a problem.

First of all, how to you schedule your plant and raw material purchases? By selling all of these vehicles, you have screwed up your sales forecast, because anybody that was thinking about buying a car just went out and got one. How many cars do you build in October?

Secondly, more importantly, you now have an even bigger problem: Who is going to be the first to take back the employee discounts? If you do it, and Chrysler decides to keep theirs, you lose and they win. If they take back their discounts, just the opposite happens.

At some point, you have to be selling these things at a profit or the whole system is pointless.

Your biggest supplier, Delphi Automotive, is at the brink of bankruptcy. Your biggest tire supplier, Goodyear, just missed bankruptcy in the spring. What are you going to tell them? Also, everything these guys do has further repercussions all the way upstream. Guess what? At the top of every one of these supply chains is an oil well.

This will not go on much longer.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', 'T')hese companies are doing what is in their best interests: Unload the gas-guzzling inventory while they can to a public dumb enough to buy it! Then when they can't afford the gas, they will be back in a couple years to trade it for a more sensible car. In a few years the economical cars will be the big-profit vehicles for automakers.

It's called built-in obsolescence, and manufacturers have been doing it to consumers for years. No big surprise here.

[JoeW]

I'm not really that concerned for the automakers. They will find a way to make money.
I can already see the catchy new names of the small cars they will sell:
Pontiac Patriot
Ford Freedom
Smart

They will probably pull the trigger at US gas prices of $4/gallon and you will see all these mini cars in dealer lots, and consumers will pat themselves on the back for being so brilliant when they trade in their Durango/Explorer/Envoy/whatever for a car that gets better fuel efficiency. The US economy will get one more cycle, then gasoline prices at around $10/gallon will be the end of it and it will all blow up.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', 'I')'m not really that concerned for the automakers. They will find a way to make money.
I can already see the catchy new names of the small cars they will sell:
Pontiac Patriot
Ford Freedom
Smart

They will probably pull the trigger at US gas prices of $4/gallon and you will see all these mini cars in dealer lots, and consumers will pat themselves on the back for being so brilliant when they trade in their Durango/Explorer/Envoy/whatever for a car that gets better fuel efficiency. The US economy will get one more cycle, then gasoline prices at around $10/gallon will be the end of it and it will all blow up.

[Heineken]

Emerson has it right. These car loans aren't going to just vanish, any more than mortgages are going to vanish, any more than the U.S.'s $7 trillion in debt is going to vanish. Debt doesn't go away unless it's somehow repaid, soon or later. You can delay and delay, but sooner or later the Mafia's legbreaker is coming for you.