[jedrider]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'A') guest worker program, with extreme penalties for those who hire or employ people who are not part of that program, would be most beneficial.

[Newfie]

Not directly related but I could not think of a better place.

John Lord, about 1874 speaking about Charles I about 1660.

“We love not the rebukers of our sins, or the opposers of our pleasures. We love those who prophesy smooth things, and "cry peace, when there is no peace." Such is man in his weakness and his degeneracy; and only an omnipotent power can change this ordinary temper of the devotees to pleasure and inglorious gains.”

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'N')ot directly related but I could not think of a better place.

John Lord, about 1874 speaking about Charles I about 1660.

“We love not the rebukers of our sins, or the opposers of our pleasures. We love those who prophesy smooth things, and "cry peace, when there is no peace." Such is man in his weakness and his degeneracy; and only an omnipotent power can change this ordinary temper of the devotees to pleasure and inglorious gains.”

[Ibon]

I take a broader perspective on this topic, one that realizes one day we will go back to honoring physical labor and craftsmanship, working with your hands, building things, growing food, building up our resiliency with less dependency on technology and machines and more skilled muscle power. A time when the willingness to do physical work will be commonplace. Why is it that Cog marvels at the speed and efficiency of roofers who hire undocumented illegals and can not help but compare this to the relaxed slow pace of a fully legal domestic work force.

It all comes down to hunger. More importantly, a lack of hunger.

[Cog]

I'm not sure if they were illegals and I felt it would be rude to ask the contractor about their status. He did remark he had worked with this particular crew for several years now, so they weren't recent arrivals to the US. He has a separate crew for siding jobs who are also Hispanic. Both crews set up a radio playing Spanish music and I never saw them stop working, outside of accepting water bottles from me. I asked the contractor what they liked to drink post-construction and he replied Modelo or Bud Light. So I sent them on their way with a 30 pack of Bud Light.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')'m not sure if they were illegals and I felt it would be rude to ask the contractor about their status. He did remark he had worked with this particular crew for several years now, so they weren't recent arrivals to the US. He has a separate crew for siding jobs who are also Hispanic. Both crews set up a radio playing Spanish music and I never saw them stop working, outside of accepting water bottles from me. I asked the contractor what they liked to drink post-construction and he replied Modelo or Bud Light. So I sent them on their way with a 30 pack of Bud Light.

[asg70]

Chicken and the egg situation.

The reason americans won't do certain types of jobs is because illegals filled the void, not the other way around. The illegals facilitated a creeping culture shift away from menial labor. If you removed all the illegals, that culture would have to shift back otherwise society would crumble.

Would it result in higher prices? Probably, but as these things ripple through society, people adapt, just as in Europe the high income tax that shocks us is taken in stride by the population there due to them repeating the benefits elsewhere. Or look to Israel where conscripted service is universal and for both sexes. These are different social contracts. What seems unfathomable to us is routine elsewhere.

[Newfie]

And that’s another great reason to control our borders, so we don’t erode the earnings base of Americans.

I still contend that neither party wants done with illegal immigrants, each for their own selfish reasons. And it really tees me off that the public cant figure this out.

[Ibon]

I would like to suggest a slightly different perspective. In many developing countries domestic workers are present throughout the social economic strata and not just reserved for the rich. For example, in the Philippines when a young man or woman comes into the city from the province they will often get their foot in the urban door by being domestic help for several years. That shouldn't be a surprise except that even lower income families will take in domestic help. It is cultural and mutually beneficial as the family gets help looking after kids and doing housework while the domestic worker, although earning peanuts, begins the process of integration and networking that eventually leads to more interesting work.

I am bringing this up because instead of Americans viewing illegals as taking away their jobs or suppressing wages why aren't we seeing more of what we see in the Philippines. I am imagining for example in some rural small town somewhere in middle America where both parents are struggling with close to minimum wage and they have kids at home and bills. Imagine what an asset a young woman from Honduras could be. Or the small auto shop down the road, what a an asset a Nicaraguan young man could be as a "grease monkey" assistant to a shop owner.

I am actually describing something that is quite common and robust within immigrant communities but you never see established Americans taking advantage of this resource.

We have a system where if a lower middle class family tried to take in an illegal to help in the shop or at home you would have one side wanting to deport them and the other side claiming that you are enslaving them with unfair wages.

I don't agree with either ASG or Newfie's last posts. Illegals are by a great majority not suppressing American wages because they do work no one else wants to OR as Cog mentioned they are high performers. ASG's point that without illegals we would see americans suddenly moving into positions in nursing homes, chicken factories, gardening, fruit picking, grease monkey, etc. etc. etc. This may be the case in several generations but there is no way you would find the current crop of American workers with even the most remote inclination to fulfill any of these jobs let alone do them competently.

I would much rather see America moving more in the direction of developing countries and embrace illegals in the truest spirit of unbridled capitalism. Let them in and let them do all the most disgusting menial labor nobody want to do and allow those with the hunger and appetite to advance themselves become future high achievers and those who don't can just keep wiping our parents butts for the next 30-40 years and for that we should all be grateful.

[onlooker]

I think the post of Ibon speaks to an even more general theme. That is of mutual aid and assistance in tandem with an Economy moving away from rabid Capitalism and into a more benign Capitalism whereby people can even do things like barter and exchange their skills and other resources for likewise from others. At this point you all must know that I am in opposition to modern Capitalism.

So, this is what I am sure Ibon is aware of in third world countries, the informal economy relates to people helping each other in symbiotic relations. Migrants can also participate given they probably come from places already assimilated to this form of living. In stands in sharp contrast, to this Debt purely money Economy whereby people are up to their necks in Debt, needing to work many hours just to pay their bills and even accessing more Debt to try and make payments. Anyway, this type of Economy seems to be reaching its limits and finality as impoverishment is enveloping and threatening many Americans.

[Ibon]

I occasionally run to town and do the grocery shopping for our staff. One staff member, a single indigenous worker, spends between $ 11 - 15 a week on food. Here is his typical shopping list

1 dozen eggs $ 1.87
5 lbs rice $ 2.00
1 lb flour $ .75
bottle oil $ 2.25
5lbs dried field corn $ 2.20
3 lbs chicken $ 5.00
1 bag cowboy coffee $ 1.75 (mix roasted coffee/corn/mystery)

He grinds the field corn to make empanada's, arepas and tortillas, makes donuts out of the flour. Notice there is no soda, no packaged processed food items. Just the basics. He supplements this diet with greens, onions from our garden, lentils and kidney beans he grows here and chickens he raises and slaughters.

He earns $ 12 a day and we cover his lodging and gas for cooking. There are no stores up here and no place to spend money so he actuallly saves around $ 50 a week which is why he has a smart phone and can hang around our WIFI access points to communicate with his family and chat with girl friends.

Just wanted to share these figures.

Poor immigrants who land in the USA will often follow this same formula. Buy tripe and bones cheap from butchers, get field corn or rice and lentils, eat all the fat on their meat, live together many in a house. They pool their wages and every month add to their savings until they can start their own businesses. No vacations, no amusement parks, no soda, just dedicated hard work to get ahead.

Now lets compare this to a lower income American, Appalachian white or inner city black, and think about what they buy with their food stamps; sodas, ice cream, cheetos, Hot pocket TV dinners, cereal, etc etc.

You wonder why immigrants get a bad rap in the US? Why poor Americans feel resentful of their presence here? Because they are often honed and fine tuned to save every penny and pull themselves out of poverty while poor Americans cannot break out of their fast food / processed food ignorance.

Anyone really think kicking out illegal immigrants will open up opportunities for America's poor?

[Newfie]

Ibon,
Since I’m sitting at a beach bar sucking passion punch I’m not goons post a long diatribe. I just think you are totally ARINC on this one and I’ll argue sometime later. In the meantime, cheers!

[jedrider]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'B')ut such an arrangement is not possible or even very useful in America today. No work is accomplished around the house anymore. The roomba cleans the floors and the dishwasher does the rest. The channel switcher handles the entertainment center.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jedrider', '
')
Ibon, wages are low in central america for the middle class because they can hire even cheaper labor as you explain. Cheap labor usually benefits the owner class the most. Every benefit that we have seems to originate in cheaper labor from elsewhere, whether immigrant or in the factories of China.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')bon,
Since I’m sitting at a beach bar sucking passion punch I’m not goons post a long diatribe. I just think you are totally ARINC on this one and I’ll argue sometime later. In the meantime, cheers!

[Cog]

Don't use the word immigrant when the more descriptive term illegal alien is more factual. That is how the left tries to frame the argument on illegals by calling them something they are not. The USA has an immigration process that border jumpers do not follow.

No one cares about LEGAL immigrants to the USA. We care quite a lot about people who are here illegally.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '
')Anyone really think kicking out illegal immigrants will open up opportunities for America's poor?

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')bon,
Since I’m sitting at a beach bar sucking passion punch I’m not goons post a long diatribe. I just think you are totally ARINC on this one and I’ll argue sometime later. In the meantime, cheers!

[Ibon]

My last couple of posts was not about immigration policy, it was more exploring the dynamics of hunger vs complacency and how immigrants, whether legal or illegal, play into this.

One could also explore how these dynamics feed into nativist sentiments. But that would probably take us into internet diatribe discussions that I no longer have much passion for so I will leave this discussion for others.