[onlooker]

No doubt Overpopulation is a detrimental factor to enabling all to attain a minimally acceptable quality of life. But our species is encumbered by other flaws in a cultural social structures that worsen the prospects of life for many. Take for instance one prominment one; Women's rights or lack thereof. So, I personally am very dismayed by the trajectory of our evolution and its slow march to improve collectively. And of course even worse, we are setting the stage for epic environmental catastrophes. If we as a species were a patient in a hospital, I think Doctors would evaulate our prognosis as terminally ill. But still, despite being constantly called a Doomer on this site, I never lose hope. I just try and focus on justifiable reasons for hope.

[ralfy]

Not just a social obligation but the source of wealth, as consumers are in essence the same employees.

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Darian S', '
')Being forced to do a meaningless task to survive, is degrading and insulting. A basic universal income, is no different than a rightfully deserved inheritance. That society tolerates unregulated birth giving rise to individuals with no significant inheritance, no adequate health, no adequate education, no adequate housing or food, etc. is a tragedy that it unethically allows.

[Darian S]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ll welfare typically does is create parasites. Not everyone is created equal. Some of us are more evolved and desire to make something of ourselves.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ralfy', 'N')ot just a social obligation but the source of wealth, as consumers are in essence the same employees.

[Newfie]

Tanada,

I just wanted to clarify that when I mentioned “trickle down” it was not meant to be a disparaging comment. It’s what happens in any merchatile system.

The concept that everything should or could be left to trickle down is something different.

I think we could kill a few pleasant evenings discussing the details.

I’ve come to the queer idea that prisoners are an integral part of our economic system because they are “pure” consumers. They create a number of jobs and economic activity without producing anything. In our culture, highly efficient, when someone produces there is then the problem of finding someone to consume that production. Production without consumption kills growth. Prisioners are a pure sink.

So are they to be admired for their role in our society? Are they not the ultimate benificiary of trickle down? Do they not receive some form of BMI?

Lots and lots of contradictions in our system.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')anada,

I just wanted to clarify that when I mentioned “trickle down” it was not meant to be a disparaging comment. It’s what happens in any mercantile system.

The concept that everything should or could be left to trickle down is something different.

I think we could kill a few pleasant evenings discussing the details.

I’ve come to the queer idea that prisoners are an integral part of our economic system because they are “pure” consumers. They create a number of jobs and economic activity without producing anything. In our culture, highly efficient, when someone produces there is then the problem of finding someone to consume that production. Production without consumption kills growth. Prisoners are a pure sink.

So are they to be admired for their role in our society? Are they not the ultimate beneficiary of trickle down? Do they not receive some form of BMI?

Lots and lots of contradictions in our system.

[onlooker]

The issue of more Govt. vs. less Govt is a very thorny one in the context of so many people alive today. It is simply logistically difficult to have very large groups agree on anything much less uniformerly execute anything. In my younger days, I was left leaning you could say Socialist. However, at present I have come to realize that Governments are very vulnerable to corruption and can be very inefficient also. On the other hand businesses are so keen on the bottom line that they are poor entities to safeguard the public good. So I see my political philsophy as Anarchist meaning NO Government , pure rule of people by people and for people.

Practically, speaking I do not think we alive will ever see anything close to that. So in lieu of that, I would say the best we can do is something akin to what the US had right after WWII with the New Deal. A Govt seeking to regulate companies and corporations while attempting to improve the lot of the masses. A rather precarious situation enabling Govt to grow too large and onerous. But instead the pecuniary forces have won out and corrupted Govt for the benefit of Big Business. As Eisenhower said beware the Military/Industrial complex.

[Newfie]

The vantage point of the observer informs the discussion. Let’s talk about oxen instead.

You have a farm, a pretty big one, and you need several teams of oxen to work the fields. And because ox need to eat, they reduce your marketable share.

Now you buy a big tractor. It is much more efficient and reliable. It doesn’t need to eat so you can sell more product.

What do you do with the ox?

And why the answer is different when talking about humans informs us as to why this is such a thorny issue.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')What do you do with the ox?

[Newfie]

Smart Ass. Good to hear you are alive and kicking.

[onlooker]

Yes Ibon, good to hear from you again. Newf, I think you would then agree that if we were creatures akin to computers without emotions, we would logically and coldly determine that we must reduce population by X numbers of people and then proceed to do so. So yes our human/emotional nature is a bit of an impediment.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'T')he vantage point of the observer informs the discussion. Let’s talk about oxen instead.

You have a farm, a pretty big one, and you need several teams of oxen to work the fields. And because ox need to eat, they reduce your marketable share.

Now you buy a big tractor. It is much more efficient and reliable. It doesn’t need to eat so you can sell more product.

What do you do with the ox?

And why the answer is different when talking about humans informs us as to why this is such a thorny issue.

[ralfy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '
')All welfare typically does is create parasites. Not everyone is created equal. Some of us are more evolved and desire to make something of ourselves.

[Darian S]

Regards rising prices universal basic income should be pegged to inflation. Also housing and transportation as well as healthcare and education should be provided.

With the internet there is global competition and the basic income could differ based on cost of living. Ultimately nationalized companies with ĺower prices could be introduced as competitors.

As for consumers word is digital economy is growing and bots can easily buy digital goods off of each other. The physical economy does have the plus side of economies of scale lowering costs. But eventually if the elite get wealthy enough they can afford the loss of economies of scale.

[Newfie]

Yes Tanada there are problems with the analogy in the details. But the point was more to illustrate on a high level the uniqueness of our dilemma.

We could treat people more like oxen, eschew automation, return to farming by Mennonite measures. There is much to be said for that, it would provide folks with a more meaningful existence and be much softer on the Earth going a long way to sustainability.

In the other hand it would almost certainly reduce the American/Webster annual yield of calories by a significant fraction, reducing calories available for folks in less fortunate countries. That would at least lead to the widespread fammin if not the large scale destabilization of Europe and Africa.

We find ourselves flying ina box canyon.

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Darian S', 'R')egards rising prices universal basic income should be pegged to inflation. Also housing and transportation as well as healthcare and education should be provided.

[GHung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '
').......Money doesn't grow on trees......

[Darian S]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Darian S', 'R')egards rising prices universal basic income should be pegged to inflation. Also housing and transportation as well as healthcare and education should be provided.

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '
').......Money doesn't grow on trees......