[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'I')bon,

Somehow we are talking past one another. I don't know how to fix it.

I would suggest we just drop the whole Clinton/Trump thing completly. It's too loaded and inflammatory.

There are tons of other examples we can use.

[KaiserJeep]

It astonishes me that educated and intelligent people know so little of American history. If you think Trump is an arogant and offensive Washington outsider, then read up on the presidencies of these men:

George Washington - fought insanely intense battles with Congress, who disagreed with him over relations with England (they favored France).
John Adams - fought a secret, months long war with France (the Quasi-War), exploited by both the Federalists and the Whigs in Congress.
Thomas Jefferson - arrested and tried his VP Aaron Burr for treason, after he tried to carve another country out of the USA.
James Madison - conducted an unnecessary war (War of 1812) while managing the aftermath of Aaron Burr's treasonous attempted rebellion.
James Monroe - the Monroe Doctrine, arguably the root cause of the US Civil War.
John Quincy Adams - had the misfortune to lose the popular vote to Andrew Jackson, while winning the Electoral College - enough said?
Andrew Jackson - founded the Democrats on a platform of pro-slavery and Native American genocides.
Martin Van Buren - did nothing when the governor of Missourii issued an extermination order against Mormons.
William Henry Harrison - did nothing, partied too hard at the inaugeration and died the first day of his presidency.
John Tyler - succeeded Harrison and fought with Congress his entire term.
James K. Polk - fought the Mexican-American war over the S border and negotiated the N border between Canada and Oregon.
Zachary Taylor - the first anti-slavery president, died in office after 16 months during a corruption scandal.
Millard Fillmore - reversed Taylor's anti-slavery stance, allowed Texas/Utah/New Mexico to vote as pro-slavery states.
Franklin Pierce - Had his Spanish ambassadors draft the Ostend Manifesto, saying if Spain did not sell Cuba, we would declare war and annex it.
James Buchanon - illegally influenced a Supreme Court Justice to uphold the Dredd Scott Decision, preventing the Federal intervention in slavery.
Abraham Lincoln - "the Great Emancipator" and founder of the Republicans, declared war on the Confederacy.
Andrew Johnson - after succeeding Lincoln, was impeached by Congress, failing of being removed from office by one vote.
Ulysseys S. Grant - the Whiskey Ring scandal (diversion of $90 Million 1875 US dollars in Federal liquor taxes).
.......
I could go on and on, right up to the Obama scandals. The point being, for all your angst about him, Trump is (so far) an uninspiring rich jerk and dilettante in politics. Also, nowhere near as controversial as his predecessors.

[Newfie]

Again Ibon I think you are focusing on a tiny point missing the larger issue.

I've been thinking along these lines for a day or two. Still pretty raw thoughts so bear with me. I'm gonna skip citations for simplicity, just make some assertions that we can discuss later.

Humans as a species tend to live in tribal communities. These communities tend to have a great deal of low level conflict resulting in high death rates. The conflicts are both internal and external. To compensate for this the tribes develop a system of governance. Essentially the right to inflict violence passes to the government. The government mediates conflicts and meads out punishment (or not). Tribe member agree to abide by the laws. Vendettas are stopped, the laws feed people's need for fairness. It works within the tribe and also between tribes. The elders negotiate instead of fighting.

So by giving government the violence franchise the population enjoys a more peaceful and longer life. The individual gives up the right for vengeance and receives the promise of peace.

The larger and more organized the governments the lower the overal death rate through tribal bickering. That's the basic social contract. I give you power, you make my life better. It relies on a premis of fairness. Fairness is an instinctual trait, even chimps will rebel if they see they are not being treated fairly. It is a very basic human concept, genetically programmed.

Now when the basic social contract breaks down, when folks surrender their right of vengeance and the government does nothing for them, or oppressed them even further, then the instinctual need for fairness kicks in. It is VERY powerful.

This is what underlies terrorism. The terrorist attack says to the population "We can do you harm and your government can not protect you." Suicide missions are particularly powerful because you can not seek vengeance upon the perpetrator. The NEED for vengeance is aroused but unsaited.

This seething anger does not dissipate, it may be suppressed but it remains. It becomes a MEME within the society.

"The government has broken the social contract, it has not protected me, it is unfair."

So the terrorist wins twice. First by killing folks, they get their revenge. It then by denying a sacrifice, a kicking boy, revenge, that hatered is turned toward the government.

This crap has been going on for a long time, a very long time. What are the inner city gangs but tribal units who have become disaffected with the government? Government has failed them, they set up their own organizations with rules and laws. Violence abounds. Can you read this scenario in BLM? A disaffected group who feels the government has not been fair. LGBT whatever? Illegal immigrants? And.....fat old white guys!

The country is disolving into a plethora of special interest groups who each feel, often times legitimately, that they have been unfairly treated, that government has failed to honor the social contract. This is where Cog and Dohboi become one, anger, frustration, helpless. (Cog and Dohboi, my apologies for dragging you in).

AND you now have the situation where entire cities are defying federal law through sanctuary laws. Where contractors in Texas openly flaunt the law hiring illegals. The various bits and pieces of the government are attempting to hold the social contract FOR THEIR CONSTITUANTS because the Federal government is failing. Whether you agree with it or not is moot, the point is that we are looking at the gradual dissolution of our Federal government.

And that will entail yet more violence as the various bits fight by the same mechanisms that cause high death rates when gangs compete.

And the bloody media thinks it's all great fun and hypes every sorid detail in the quest for eyeballs. Jacks us all up, reminds us of every wound, every slight. They are priding both sides to pick up arms.

It's no wonder we have various folks crack and go nuts. The more fragile among us feel these pressures accutly and many react badly.

PS. Unrelated to my above, but I just gotta say this.
I need to comment on the folks pondering the shooters sanity, was he mentally ill? Did he have an undiagnosed mental illness?

Well, duh, YEAH! He shoot hundreds killing 58 strangers. OF COURSE HE WAS NUTS. If that's not mentally ill then what the hell is? What drivel of analysis have we sunk to that we need to ask the question?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')
The country is disolving into a plethora of special interest groups who each feel, often times legitimately, that they have been unfairly treated, that government has failed to honor the social contract. This is where Cog and Dohboi become one, anger, frustration, helpless. (Cog and Dohboi, my apologies for dragging you in).

AND you now have the situation where entire cities are defying federal law through sanctuary laws. Where contractors in Texas openly flaunt the law hiring illegals. The various bits and pieces of the government are attempting to hold the social contract FOR THEIR CONSTITUANTS because the Federal government is failing. Whether you agree with it or not is moot, the point is that we are looking at the gradual dissolution of our Federal government.

[Cog]

Its going to be a very long seven years for some people here.

[Newfie]

Ibon,

Frankly I thought Obama was as bad or worse than Trump. For many reasons but to keep it short and high level....

His whole theme of HOPE. It was BS from day one, he could not deliver on the promise. He jacked people up, gave them the idea they were going to get something. Some folks wanted cash, or a job, or respect. Some folks wanted their time on top, some waned revenge.

These unfulfilled vague promises are coming home to roost. Folks felt lied too, so they didn't turn out to vote. They felt disenfranchised so they became militant. It organized other folks to elect the polar opposite.

Trump is not the disease, he is the symptom. Trump is Obamas legacy.

[Newfie]

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll's amusement.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')ts going to be a very long seven years for some people here.

[Cog]

Oh and you don't think Ibon is trolling with his constant attacks on Trump by calling him deranged and his supporters racists and Nazi's? Funny how blinders work Newfie.

[Cog]

Oh and you don't think Ibon is trolling with his constant attacks on Trump by calling him deranged and his supporters racists and Nazi's? Funny how blinders work Newfie.


LOL deserved to be posted twice. Even the software knows I'm right. Progressives have lost their mind over this election. I see their angst and drama played out every day in the media. What they could not win in an election, they seek to get by other means. Even if it involves inventing Russian interference or speculating on removing Trump by reason of mental instability. Like I said, its going to be a long seven years for them.

[Newfie]

No I don't think Ibon is trolling. His was a thoughtful post aimed at communicating an idea. And I think both sides have lost their minds.

Which is my point. Why are we at such odds with one another? What is the mechanism behind the vitriol?

Understaning the process may, or may not, allow you to do something about it. More likely if you understand it you have a better chance of surviving.

Otherwise I may as well buy two TVs so I can listen to CNN in my Left ear and Fox in my Right. Lots of noise, no content.

[Cog]

There can be no unity with leftist and communists, who seek to destroy American exceptionalism and replace it with their version of a socialist utopia. You might as well suggest unity between a rapist and a rape victim.

[KaiserJeep]

What a silly thing to say, Cog. We just finished two terms of a leftist president who enjoyed widespread popular support, and Trump was yet another POTUS who did not win the majority of the popular vote. Plenty of leftists in this country who vote as a block.

Just as there is an approximate equal number on the right. The approximately 10% of unalighned voters decide everything.

[Cog]

In three years and one month the voters can decide differently .Like Obama said "Elections have consequences."

Democrats/socialists, and communists will have to sit in the back until the ride is over. Or if they want to overthrow a duly elected president, let the games begin.

[evilgenius]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I')ts going to be a very long seven years for some people here.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', '
')
In terms of living, I suggested a registry. I suggested that because it isn't about banning. It takes into account the Second Amendment. A registry doesn't infringe upon anybody's ability to either possess or sell the kinds of weapons that make non gun owners afraid.

[evilgenius]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', '
')
In terms of living, I suggested a registry. I suggested that because it isn't about banning. It takes into account the Second Amendment. A registry doesn't infringe upon anybody's ability to either possess or sell the kinds of weapons that make non gun owners afraid.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', '
')In terms of living, I suggested a registry. I suggested that because it isn't about banning. It takes into account the Second Amendment. A registry doesn't infringe upon anybody's ability to either possess or sell the kinds of weapons that make non gun owners afraid. What it does is introduce transparency into the situation. And transparency exposes owners of those types of guns and gun accessories that would put a person on the registry to how non gun owners would react to them when they have knowledge. If it developed according to my suggestion, where most pistols, hunting rifles and other reasonable use items for which there are considerable examples of use within society, don't place a person on the list, then those people would not come under the scrutiny of the non gun loving public. That's what compromise looks like, not that you get something in return, but that you listen. If you listen that means when you hear the other side considers a thing to be very important you make concessions.

[Cog]

@evilgenius

Can I compile a list of all your valuables so a thief can steal them at some point in time? That is what your gun registry accomplishes.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', '
')Speaking of God, how is it that when I browse some Christian forums I see as much gun talk, or more, than on conservative forums? People who've read anything I've said on this site may know that I criticize the Church. I don't lay into it because I think it is preposterous, but because I believe that those in it are responsible for thinking according to the kingdom. Are Christians doing that when they back all sorts of attitudes which put other people down, and keep them down? Are they doing it when they show they have so little faith as to allow their fears to arrange the way they think? Is that loving thy neighbor? Perfect love should cast out fear, shouldn't it?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')
Which is my point. Why are we at such odds with one another? What is the mechanism behind the vitriol?