[KaiserJeep]

asg70 is correct. We are screwed, blued, and tattooed because apes do not restrain their reproduction rates. There are far far too many people and not enough stuff. The presence of our food species, both animal and plant, is even more disruptive than the human animals themselves.

There will be war. Possibly an apocalyptic war.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', 'a')sg70 is correct. We are screwed, blued, and tattooed because apes do not restrain their reproduction rates. There are far far too many people and not enough stuff. The presence of our food species, both animal and plant, is even more disruptive than the human animals themselves.

[Cog]

We aren't limited to the environment we happen to find ourselves in like the lower animals of the field. We can harvest things, like oil, gas, and coal and improve our abilities to reproduce in large quantities. Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal. We are special and unique on the whole planet and we can manipulate the environment and exploit resources to suit ourselves.

I'm not blind to the fact there are actual physical limits to human's ability to exploit the planet but we aren't there yet and likely won't be for quite some time.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'W')e aren't limited to the environment we happen to find ourselves in like the lower animals of the field. We can harvest things, like oil, gas, and coal and improve our abilities to reproduce in large quantities. Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal. We are special and unique on the whole planet and we can manipulate the environment and exploit resources to suit ourselves.

[Newfie]

EXACTLY! Stop trying to make out how exceptional we are, humans are just a SLIGHTLY smarter ape. All the rules that apply to all the rest of the animal species apply to us as well.

Cog, you are very much in touch with our instinctual animal behavioir. Probably the poster most in tune with the animal urges. The one who sees the world most clearly through instinctual eyes.

You of all folks should deeply understand just how animal we are. Just how unexceptional. How instinctual.

That's what makes your posts refreshing, and disturbing, you channel the survival instinct within us all.

[onlooker]

Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal.--We are like other animals in the sense of being biological beings who require are certain parameter range of conditions on this planet to survive. And we are in the process of destabilizing those conditions.

[asg70]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'S')top trying to make humans just like any other animal.

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n fact, modern anthropology and neuroscience show that cooperation, group identity, and a sense of fair play are defining features of humanity

[asg70]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'c')ooperation, group identity, and a sense of fair play are defining features of humanity

[Cog]

Trump economy still booming away. Jobs added and wages up too.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/busi ... yment.html

The labor market roared back in June, with a hefty monthly gain in jobs, and revisions that added 47,000 more jobs to April and May than previously reported. Over the past three months, job gains have averaged 194,000 a month.

[vtsnowedin]

Brought over from another thread as suggested.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ostby onlooker » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:30 am
In responsee to VTS and his assertion that Capitalism has been such a success. Well, maybe for a relatively few on this planet for a brief time. Otherwise, Capitalism is nothing more than economic Survival of the fittest. So, that throughout time a small minority of people have benefitted from this market economic system and usually those same have exploited all the rest of the people as slaves, feudal peasants, in invasions for monetary/resource gain etc.
So in the modern age it is no different. The masses of the third world have neutered to helplessness while the rich countries and its citizens have benefitted. Sorry, to veer away from topic but thought I would set the record straight. If anyone wishes to debate about this, we can on the "Capitaism is Evil" thread in the Economics and Finance forum

[onlooker]

"Socially and economically, we have created great disparities of wealth. A minority of the world's population (17%) consume most of the world's resources (80%), leaving almost 5 billion people to live on the remaining 20%. As a result, billions of people are living without the very basic necessities of life - food, water, housing and sanitation."
http://worldcentric.org/conscious-livin ... -injustice

[KaiserJeep]

Capitalism began before writing in the form of merchant caravans, travelling from village to village and trading goods. The invention of money, accounting, securities and commodity markets, all folllowed. Far from being a disease on humanity, capitalism is responsible for civilization as we know it. That it is so successful in it's present form has unfortunately allowed 7.3+ billions of Kudzu Apes to exist. We are crowding out other species on the planet, those without Capitaliism.

It is only when one re-defines the age-old definition of success to include the environment around us that one can even begin to claim that Capitalism is flawed. However, in reality Capitalism is at best an enabler of natural primate proclivities.

As others have noted, there exists natural curbs to growth in the Western World. The USA for example would have a shrinking population less immigration from Second and Third World countries. But the globe will be troubled by overpopulation as long as the Third World exists, as long as people struggle to survive, as long as ignorance exists, as long as oppression exists.

Without a doubt the presence of Communism, Socialism, Marxism, etc. comprise the very essence of evil. Those who promote such things to replace Capitalism are themselves evil. But most of all, they are abysmally ignorant. In the midst of the greatest civilization and the most prosperity that has ever existed for the most people, they preach a theory that totally lacks merit because they refuse to acknowledge that basic primate behavior is the center of Capitalism.

In case you are wondering, the Capitalist countries did nothing to oppress the Third World. In seeking to spread prosperity, they spread agriculture, medicine, and cheap fossil-fuelled energy. Then in less than four generations, the Third World population swelled to unsustainable numbers. The First World enabled this, with the best of intentions. Now there are too many people to allow for First World lifestyles for all.

Marx and Engels were ignorant fools whose ridiculous fantasies have killed far more people than anything else in this world. If you think that is desireable, you could go on admiring them. If you believe in freedom and self determination, you are a Capitalist.

[onlooker]

Again, Kaiser, I have displayed links to experts who attest that Primate behaviors are a miixed bag and some are quite virtuous and altruistic. Second, we humans have evolved beyond primates and have cognitive and emotions that reflect our more advanced evolution. So, Capitalism is not inevitable. It simply reflects that Capitalism by its nature being an aggressive nature, invaded and subjugated whole areas of land and peoples and indoctrinated them into a formal Capitalism not just trade and profit as you tend to equate it ALL as part of Capitlaism. As for rich countries have done nothing to oppress poorer countries gosh give me a break. The modus operandi has been exploitation which is the essense of modern Capitalism as practiced by Empires. As for uplifting poor people hardly. To this day billions without electricity, with hardly any access to the markeplace of goods and services because of lack of money. 3 Billion live on $2 dollars or less per day. Whole countries and economies stunted not necessarily because of lack of intelligent people or hard working people but because they have been at the mery of exploitative practices whereby their Economices as conditions to receive loans were forced to be adapted to import and export and thus never developed their local economies or enabled people to sustain themselves with small businesses. Not to mention the pillaging of resources. As for killing no greater testament can exist to the dead end of the Capitalistic mindset than the fact that in the earnestness for profit and material gain which the Capitalism system embodies, the entire Earth is set up now for ridding billions of us. And so your very argument bolsters my case. The modern lifestyle enabled by the pursuers of wealth, itself enabled so many people to come to exist via medicines, fossil fuel exploitation, worldwide transport, the Green Revolution etc. So overpopulation enabled by Capitalism.

[KaiserJeep]

Overpopulation is caused by ape instincts. But for tens of thousands of years, "good" was whatever enabled more people, more wealth, more liesure, more material goods, more of everything.

Now, within my lifespan, we are starting to run up against natural limits. Too many people, not enough stuff. So, you propose changing the definition of "good" - as if that would help the situation at all.

One possible re-definition would be to say that a man who bashes newborn infants on the head with a hammer is a "good man". After all, he is directly and efficiently addressing the underlying problem of too many people.

China flirted with the idea, when they enacted a "one child" policy. Nothing wrong with the policy, it was how they went about enforcing it. Women who had a single child were forced to abort another pregnancy. If they successfully hid the pregnancy, and it was discovered late in the third trimester, the abortion method was to induce labor, and when the infant's head began to "crown", to inject formaldehyde into the infant's head so that it died before being fully birthed. Performed by midwives and doctors, the moral equivalent of bashing with a hammer.

In any less oppressive society than Chinese Communism, it would have resulted in the extermination of the government. Why don't you take a stab at justifying such behavior, being a good little Marxist?

[onlooker]

No, I do not justify that behavior. Oh and by the way I am not a Marxist. I consider myself an Anarchist. But anyway I think we need to separate this debate from what has occurred from what should or will occur. I see no happy ending. Millions and billions of people will probably die in the wind down of Civilization and the ensuing more drastic effects of AGW. I only hope that throughout all this period, people will channel their more noble instincts and have compassion for each other and behave as such.

[asg70]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'M')illions and billions of people will probably die in the wind down of Civilization and the ensuing more drastic effects of AGW. I only hope that throughout all this period, people will channel their more noble instincts and have compassion for each other and behave as such.

[KaiserJeep]

If anarchy is your goal, you are at heart a Capitalist. That is the system that spontaneously replaces everything else after the alternatives fail.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', '.').. As a result, billions of people are living without the very basic necessities of life - food, water, housing and sanitation."

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vtsnowedin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', '.').. As a result, billions of people are living without the very basic necessities of life - food, water, housing and sanitation."