[Cog]

You can always count on me to provide you a dark shadow when you need one. Not that any of this die-off will occur in our lifetime or even that of our children's.

[onlooker]

Okay, I am hearing all your thoughts. I am stuck on a theme which I believe we should elaborate more on when discussing all these matters. Maybe deep down the dissatisfaction in the human world as it has evolved and is currently is in regards to how we treat each other. If a new world is created with many less people and we retain some technology and we can live with the bounty of nature and the comforts and opportunities technology gives us have we created anything resembling paradise. NO. We still will be left with almost certainly a world that will evolve as it has before, of haves and have nots. A world where privilege bestows on some the good life and lack of the same deprives others of a decent life. Sea hinted at it with his economic paradox. Is all this talk simply about who survives and who does not. What world do we really want and why do we wish to survive? Is it about simply life boat ethics and the survival of the fittest. What is happening and will happen will put a magnifying glass on what and who each one of us is. I want another world not because of economic deprivation but because I find our relations with each other lacking in compassion, empathy and love. That is why I wish the end to this status quo. Some will say that that world will never be, maybe or maybe not.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', ' ')Not that any of this die-off will occur in our lifetime or even that of our children's.

[Cog]

Why do people think that in times of economic deprivation that people will suddenly gain compassion, empathy, and love? I do not care to have relations with any outside my group, unless it benefits my group in some way. If you aren't in my group you are enemy.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ') I want another world not because of economic deprivation but because I find our relations with each other lacking in compassion, empathy and love. That is why I wish the end to this status quo. Some will say that that world will never be, maybe or maybe not.

[Cog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ') I want another world not because of economic deprivation but because I find our relations with each other lacking in compassion, empathy and love. That is why I wish the end to this status quo. Some will say that that world will never be, maybe or maybe not.

[onlooker]

Yes, Ibon, the world is not just about one big love fest. A world of economic constraints and authoritarian rule will create friction and tension between peoples. But I also know that a world embodied by current American ethos of being highly materialistic, selfish and competitive as is already plainly evident leads too much resentment, entitlement ,inequality and injustice. Perhaps, some day our species can practice economic restraint while allowing for much personal freedom and rights

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', ' ')I want another world not because of economic deprivation but because I find our relations with each other lacking in compassion, empathy and love. That is why I wish the end to this status quo. Some will say that that world will never be, maybe or maybe not.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'Y')es, Ibon, the world is not just about one big love fest. A world of economic constraints and authoritarian rule will create friction and tension between peoples. But I also know that a world embodied by current American ethos of being highly materialistic, selfish and competitive as is already plainly evident leads too much resentment, entitlement ,inequality and injustice. Perhaps, some day our species can practice economic restraint while allowing for much personal freedom and rights

[onlooker]

Onlooker, if the Chinese succeed in being the new imperialist they will make Americans look like Santa Klaus.-- Yet that has maintained their society fairly stable for a long time. Oh and yes the MSM is disgusting here

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'O')nlooker, if the Chinese succeed in being the new imperialist they will make Americans look like Santa Klaus.-- Yet that has maintained their society fairly stable for a long time.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'A')simov writes great fiction but is a horrible futurist. In the event there were 20 Cogs fighting over the same bathroom, 19 of them would be dead and the remaining Cog would take bubble-baths at his leisure.

[Newfie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'W')hy do people think that in times of economic deprivation that people will suddenly gain compassion, empathy, and love? I do not care to have relations with any outside my group, unless it benefits my group in some way. If you aren't in my group you are enemy.

[Newfie]

Ibon, on the road to independence the first thing to do is execute the TV.

My understanding of human cultural development is different than yours. We start out as small egalitarian family groups but as we continually evolve we need to develop in increasingly more complex and restricting governments in order to assure group harmony and our economic power.

Cog,
This is where I have so much difficulty with your position. You try to hold two conflicting ideals as obtainable at once....personal freedom and economic power. They are mutually exclusive. I think it's been difficult for myself and others to address this clearly because your overlay of defensive arrogance generally invites a desire to retaliate in kind. As we squelch that desire we also squelch thoughtful argument. We just kind of go off muttering "AH." That is much your loss, you may feel smug in the moment, but you forestall engaged discussion and thus your own learning and intellectual advancement.

But it is true, no lasting empire has existed without a mataching bureacroacry. As empire and economic power grow personal freedoms wither.

[onlooker]

Yes, I think me and Cog epitomize opposite ends of the spectrum as to how we would hope humanity deals with all that is coming. Yes, lifeboat ethics will ensue through the bottleneck of overshoot. But can we avoid to some degree the tribal instincts and at least have a broader base of empathy than our immediate group? Especially, on the other side of the bottleneck can the searing intense common experiences forge a solidarity among all surviving humans unlike we have ever known on this planet? I sure hope so

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', '
')


Gas

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', '
')
Cog,
This is where I have so much difficulty with your position. You try to hold two conflicting ideals as obtainable at once....personal freedom and economic power. They are mutually exclusive.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GASMON', 'I') wouldn't write America off yet - not by a long chalk.