[Aaron]

With a title like that... This one should ruffle feathers and create a hurricane of thinking...

As with all species, humanity is propelled forward by it's genetic make up. Future generations are a direct product of procreation by current generations.

The reproductive strategies which are successful, collectively define not only the current human genome, but also influence the possible direction for the future evolution of the species.

In humanity, as most species, mates are selected based on a set of historically superior indicators, including physical attributes and individual behavior. Many variations on this theme are expressed, but taken as an entire group, certain majority trends in breeding patterns dwarf the effects of smaller deviations from the norm, on our genetic legacy.

So the majority trend in genetic mixing, can be viewed as the "level-set" for our species as a whole.

With the exception of "forced reproduction" (like rape or artificial insemination), the vast majority of mating choices exist on an almost "macro quantum" level of sociology. Billions of individual decisions, become our collective choice for the future of humanity. The aggregate of the these decisions then becomes another step in our genetic legacy.

Because of the physical nature of our reproductive strategy, one individual from each sex is required to breed with success, but only one member actually has the responsibility for physically nurturing offspring from conception through birth... the female.

Since a single male, could potentially sire many offspring, while a given female can produce a limited number during a lifetime, the real power & responsibility for breeding choices ultimately reside in the female of the species. Our common genetic heritage can in fact be viewed as the sum of partner choices, made by billions of women between 12 & 25 years old, over millions of years.

Like the ultimate in democratic experiments, our women "elect" each generation through their partner choices. The greater the number of any genetic "type" selected for breeding, the more influence that "type" has on humanity. Less popular models have correspondingly less effect.

I guess everyone sees where this is going, so I won't labor the point, but the logic seems pretty clear.

If our women choose partners who are aggressive, competitive alpha males they will enjoy the fruits of that individual lifestyle, and tend to produce offspring with similar qualities.

Likewise if our women choose cooperative, socially conscious men as mates... you get the idea.

So... <pant> Are our women ultimately responsible for the mess we are in?

"Let the games begin!"

[Barbara]

Since most males are nothing but cavemen, then we're forced to choose the strongest of cavemen in order to protect us from other bully cavemen.
Otherwise, we would be pleased to choose a poet.

Your cavewoman,
Barbara.

[Falconoffury]

I think females are just as responsible as males. Males have traditionally wielded more power than females over communities. The mate choosing process can go either way. Females aren't the only mate choosers. I've turned down plenty of women, while winning over the affections of others. It's difficult to calculate how the choosing of mates has effected our evolution. I know that material wealth can be favored completely ignoring genetic traits, so there are variables that have nothing to do with genetics.

The way I see it, is that women have created too many people, and men haven't killed enough people. That's my take on overpopulation. If only women didn't think babies were so cute.

[OilBurner]

Womens views and choices in life are and always have been strongly influenced (if not outright controlled) by the behaviour of males, so although attractiveness is the key in open reproduction, what constitutes that attraction has a lot to do with society as a whole. e.g. in some cultures large (i.e. fat) women are valued as being highly fertile, in others thin (but curvy) women are preferred. The same kind of variance applies to womens choices too. With men dominating the upper echelons of society, the choices and desires of women will be coloured by the world view which men have generally made their own.
Don't forget that women are half the genes from their fathers, which would suggest to me that they would be likely to pick someone like their own father anyway. So it's all a little chicken and egg anyway.

So, in a word, No. I blame democrats/republicans*. :D :D

*delete as preferred

But really I think it's just a legacy of the parameters which worked for evolution in the past not catching up with the demands of the modern world fast enough.

[trespam]

The whole line of thinking is preposterous in my mind.

On the practical level, consider the word "choice" which is key in the proposed blame analysis. I think the idea that there has been a great deal of choice on the part of women, or even men, is questionable. In some societies, women have no choice. Did women have choice in more primitive societies? One can philosophize and speculate until blue in the face.

Animals consume. Animals seek to survive. Most animals run up against environmental limits. Humans are no different--except that we are able to manipulate the environment better and hypothesize the future (e.g. the path of a ball rolling down a hill). That is it.

Humans will run into limits, the myth of eternal growth will be proven to be false, and then we will move on in some fashion.

So the focus should be on why humans are more intelligent.

Personally, I blame greed. I don't think men or women have a leg up on that one.

[JR]

Is this poll asking if women are responsible for mankind as it is today? I find this whole poll kind of silly. Or maybe I am stupid and just don't understand it.



Jodi

[Aaron]

Ok,

So far we have:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n some societies, women have no choice. Did women have choice in more primitive societies? One can philosophize and speculate until blue in the face.

[goldfishbowl42]

I think Females and Males are just as responsible as each other for partnership choice, as males choose females on looks, females choose males on wealth and ability to provide for them. It is an ancient pattern that will not change for the vastly forseeable future.

One thing I do think is that Women apear more taken in by the current consumerism society. They sshop more and enjoy this waste of resources more than men. Obviously exceptions exist in both but the general trend still exists that women shop more and buy into advertising more.

Just my opinion though.

[Leanan]

It's true that females generally have more power in courtship than do males. That's the case throughout the animal kingdom: the sex that puts the greater investment into offspring is pickier. In the case of most mammals, that means sex is something females have, and males want.

That said, the reasons women choose as they do are not arbitrary. Anyone ever read a story by James Tiptree, Jr., called "Houston, Houston, Do You Read?" Three astronauts are flung far into the future...to an Earth where all men have died, and an all-female population reproduces by cloning. The men at first think they have it made...until they realize that these women don't want any men. "But you need men to protect you!" one of the astronauts protests. One of the women replies, "As I understand it, what you protected people from was largely other males, wasn't it?"

There is reason to believe that women may suffer more in the coming crash. Whenever people are under population pressure, it's the females who suffer. Why? Because females control growth. As any farmer knows, if you want to rapidly increase your stock, you keep the females and kill the males. Because one male can keep a whole herd of females pregnant. Why feed extra males, when they're not needed?

Similarly, if you want to keep the population down, it's the females you kill. Many anthropologists believe that this is the reason males are favored over females in so many cultures. Cultures which instead favored females over males would not survive - not because women can't work or fight, if necessary, but because having more females than males will result in a crippling population explosion. If you have extra males instead, they can work and fight...and won't add to your population problem.

So in most cultures, female babies are more likely to be abandoned or killed than males. Male children are more likely to get medical care, food, education, etc. Women are supposed to be inferior and subordinate to males. This can be brutal, but it helps keep the population down. Control of females is control of fertility.

I suspect it is not a coincidence, that feminism took off at about the same time as the Pill.

[EnviroEngr]

Well put.

[Guest]

I see two different kinds of generalized power in the industrialized world: Macro power, in the form of politics, business, government, etc. and micro power, in terms of the relationships between people. Obviously, old men control most of the macro power but I think women hold most of the micro power and the reason is sex. Men want it and women grant it to them. It explains trophy wives, playboy, strip clubs, ladies night, Baywatch and the oldest profession of all. Of course men also have some sexual power and there are variations among individual women and cultures, but the balance is in the favor of females. I think this is why many cultures have historically tried to subdue women in order to keep them from exercising their sexual prowess. Men understood that women have enormous power over them and they used their macro powers to suppress women and maintain total control. Anyway, it’s just an overgeneralized theory (no, I don’t think all men are pigs), but it certainly does help me reconcile the imbalance of macro power between the sexes when I remember that there is different kind of power with the opposite imbalance.

[Falconoffury]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')en want it and women grant it to them.

[trespam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'O')k,

So far we have:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n some societies, women have no choice. Did women have choice in more primitive societies? One can philosophize and speculate until blue in the face.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')en are impregnators, and therefore the choosers as well.

[trespam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')en are impregnators, and therefore the choosers as well.

[Devil]

Simply put, without women there would be no human condition, at all.

However, never forget that the weaker sex is the stronger sex because of the weakness the stronger sex has for the weaker sex.

I'll go one stage farther: which position is favourite among married couples?

The doggy position: the man sits up and begs and the woman lies back, pretending she'd dead.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd since human evolution occurred over the time period that took place before recorded history, all speculation about modern societies and even modern tribal societies is also just that: speculation.

[trespam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'B')ut if we accept that $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 's')ociobiology

[entropyfails]

Just as a reminder in this debate… Only human females have breasts that remain “enlarged” when not lactating. So unless human women had a habit of killing the smaller chested of their sex, we males have been putting a selective pressure on our females for a long time.

You cannot blame this problem on genetics. It comes from a mental disease that we all acquired. While it allows us to live longer, it makes us live as a virus and thus that blame falls equally on the males and females alike.

[trespam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', 'J')ust as a reminder in this debate… Only human females have breasts that remain “enlarged” when not lactating. So unless human women had a habit of killing the smaller chested of their sex, we males have been putting a selective pressure on our females for a long time.

You cannot blame this problem on genetics. It comes from a mental disease that we all acquired. While it allows us to live longer, it makes us live as a virus and thus that blame falls equally on the males and females alike.