[Surf]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')olar thermal with either graphite or molten silica should definitely be in the mix too.
A change of government and a price on Carbon will speed up change and both are looking likely

[ROCKMAN]

monkey - "Once they combine it with storage it will be a game changer." Why wait to change the game? Latest stat: Total Aussie electricity capacity: 44,084 MWh. By the end of 2015, Texas had more than 18,500 megawatts of wind capacity installed. IOW the current wind power capacity in Texas could match 42% of total Aussie electricity capacity...and Texas capacity continues to expand. And Texas has virtually no storage capacity. And has no intermittency problem when the wind stops blowing because we have fossil fuel plants as backup...just like Australia does. And our fossil fuel plants have decades of coal reserves to burn...just like Australia does. And when the winds are blowing strong our % of electricity from burning coal falls by 50%...unlike Australia where it doesn't. And soon Texas will see a surge in solar capacity that will provide a lot of power during our hot summer days when wind capacity is typically diminished. Hot summer days when electricity demand for AC's peak at the same time as solar power would peak. So, do the Aussies use much AC in during summer days when the sun shines bright?

And soon a Texas city of 50,000 will go 100% renewable with a combination of PRIVATELY FINANCED wind and solar build outs. Anything similar going to happen soon in Australia? BTW at night if the wind isn't blowing: fossil fuel will still supply the city on those rare occasions.

Again all this accomplished in Texas WITH NO STORAGE CAPACITY. And if/when commercial grid storage is developed? Texas could almost immediately start pushing closer to full green energy capacity since it has already gotten a big leap on alt energy production.

[Shaved Monkey]

Update;
The Prime Minister and the Premier of South Australia have spent time talking to Musk over the weekend
and Australian battery storage suppliers have started a bidding war to win the contract.
...........so its all good

This Week;
"SA premier Jay Weatherill is scheduled to this week release his energy plan for SA following the recent spate of blackouts and debate over renewable energy.
Speculation abounds it will include shoring up of baseload power, possibly with the government mandating security over gas supplies from the likes of Santos."

Mr Cannon-Brookes said on Saturday he had enough offers of financial support to build as many as 10 of Tesla's originally proposed 100 megawatt hour battery farms.






This is the solution for an Isolated city in the rainforests at the tip of Australias east coast
Solar and Batteries,Not enough wind in the tropics but plenty of sun

[Shaved Monkey]

It seems the rules need to change to.

"One of the impediments to batteries being fully deployed in the market is that they can't capture all the revenue that should be available to them, simply because of the way in which the regulations for the market are established."


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-13/b ... la/8349724

[kiwichick]

Carnegie in talks

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20170313/p ... zjlymg.pdf

[ROCKMAN]

Monkey - "...simply because of the way in which the regulations for the market are established." As I mentioned before it seems Aussie regs are a significant part of the problem. I haven't and won't study those details. But as explained earlier it seems easy for some of the utilities to game the system to the detriment of the consumers. Our ERCOT might not be a perfect solution but it would put all the players (utilities, power generators, transmission companies, consumers, private investors, govt regulators, etc) on a level playing field.

For instance, I've yet to hear what problems the Aussies have (or don't have) with their grid, Another thought: with all the excitement over storage is the cart getting ahead of the horse: are they talking about more storage capacity then current alt energy capacity? Last night I got to thinking about the numbers I posted comparing electricity metrics between Australia and Texas. And then I checked: essentially Texas and the Aussies have the same population...around 24 million. Geographically there is also similar geography: lots of coastlines, lots of sunny land).

Numbers for Australia I found:

The main source of Australia's electricity generation is coal. In 2003, coal-fired power plants generated 77.2% of the country's total electricity production, followed by natural gas (13.8%), hydropower (7.0%), oil (1.0%), biomass (0.6%) and solar and wind combined (0.3%). in 2008–09, a total of 261 terawatt hours of electricity (including off-grid electricity) was generated in Australia. Coal-fired plants also constitute a majority of generating capacity which in 2008-9 was 29,407 MW. The total generating capacity from all sources in 2008-9 was approximately 51 GW with an average capacity utilization of 52 per cent.

And for Texas from Aug 2016:

The Texas electric grid set a new record Monday for the most power consumed at any given time in the state. Peak demand exceeded 70,000 megawatts for the first time, according to ERCOT, which manages nearly 90 percent of the state’s power load. Use peaked at 70,169 megawatts after 4 p.m. We had sufficient generation available today, including more than 5,000 megawatts of wind generation over peak”.

Texas wind power could replace 60% of Aussie electricity production from coal. And Texas wind power is just in its early stages and provides only a small % of Texas electricity. Now solar is beginning to surge since its costs have dropped significantly. And Australia has much more solar power potential then Texas. This might seem harsh but it sounds like the Aussie coal industry has too much control over the politicians. Unless the situation is unique in Texas (not very likely) the Aussies should be pushing solar big time. Which would justify grid storage.

Of course that assumes their grid could handle it. The Texas grid could not handle our wind power build out. Which is why the state paid $7 BILLION in tax payer monies to improve our grid. And none of the voters are complaining. And a number of communities voted to pay higher INITIAL RATES to induce investors to expand alt energy. And none of those voters are complaining. During our record peak electricity consumption last year (when our same size population used more the 2X the daily amount of electricity normally used in Australia) we never had a blackout so no one complained like the Aussies recently did about their supply disruption.

If I were a pissed off Aussie I would keep throwing Texas in the face of those politicians. After all what Aussie doesn't think he can do better then any Yank...even one from Texas. LOL. I might make the same recommendation to the kiwichick. Any kiwi should be able to bet any Aussie whatever the game might be, right? LOL.

[sparky]

.
The ABC article doesn't mention it but the grid is not build for carrying DC low voltage ,
that is basically impossible at the energy level used today
the Grid carry AC high voltage because it is the best and cheapest solution
there are some high voltage DC links but they are rare and used only for special problems

the battery issue is fine , setting up a big bank of them is not that difficult ,
but are they connected to the consumer ? how ? under which voltage ?

Australia certainly could have much more solar , not for any Greenish reasons ,
simply to use it as a peak mitigating system , just money .

P.S. @ Rockman , of all the Australian braggarts the best are those from Western Australia
it's size would make even Texas look mid-sized
the place is just a giant calcined brick where one hang on to sanity by locating cold beer

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'A')gain all this accomplished in Texas WITH NO STORAGE CAPACITY. And if/when commercial grid storage is developed? Texas could almost immediately start pushing closer to full green energy capacity since it has already gotten a big leap on alt energy production.

[Shaved Monkey]

South Australia announces $550m energy plan

The South Australian government will spend $550 million on a new package designed to shore up its electricity system, which includes a new government-owned gas-fired power plant for $360 million and Australia's largest battery storage facility.

It will also pay landowners 10 per cent of royalties for new production of gas and petroleum which comes from their production fields.

"If you want our money, the gas will be sold to South Australians first,"


http://www.afr.com/business/energy/elec ... 312-guwnuq

the new "fast-start" aero derivative gas-fired power plant would be a back-up plant, and won't compete on a day-to-day basis with the likes of AGL or Origin Energy.

But it was an insurance policy against the times when power generation from existing sources was insufficient in the state.


looks like problem solved.

[Shaved Monkey]

Interesting that the solution is a "socialist" one.

"For too long, South Australian households and businesses have been at the mercy of private companies seeking to maximise their profits ."


http://www.theage.com.au/business/energ ... uxid7.html

There seems to be a real backlash against privatisation at the moment.
So many public assets were sold off nation wide in the 90s and we see the results today in higher prices, exported profits,fewer jobs(yet higher wages for the few at the top), less apprentice training and decreasing government revenue to fund health and education and social safety nets.

[Antaris]

"Private companies seeking to maximize profits" or maybe Private companies trying to stay in business. The governments all over this world seem to be able to borrow money and go into bankruptable debt where a business would be long ago bankrupt. The the governments make the "greedy" businesses look dirty.

[kiwichick]

@ rockman.....Kiwi's are slightly outnumbered by Aussies.......over 5 times

They usually beat us at Cricket.....but we usually beat them at Rugby

[Shaved Monkey]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Antaris', '&')quot;Private companies seeking to maximize profits" or maybe Private companies trying to stay in business. The governments all over this world seem to be able to borrow money and go into bankruptable debt where a business would be long ago bankrupt. The the governments make the "greedy" businesses look dirty.

[ROCKMAN]

k - Thanks. Had not seen reports of Texas efforts for various storage options.

Monkey - "...which includes a new government-owned gas-fired power plant for $360 million and Australia's largest battery storage facility". That makes no sense: if they are building such storage why not go solar instead of NG sourced electricity? Where is the electricity coming from they plan to store?

There's a way to bridge the gap between private profit motive and public benefit: combine them in a complimentary fashion as has been done in Texas and continues today. Again, consider the Georgetown, Texas, plan to go 100% green. For the companies building the wind and solar to supply the town would require offering a high rate of return and the possibility of gouging the public during an electricity shortage period. But instead the city is signing a 20 year contract that guarantees a cash flow to the alt investors. Besides assuring them of a profitable investment it also allows easy financing at lower interest rates (thus requiring a lower electric rate to create a profit): essentially Georgetown is underwriting the loan. And while this required the town's consumers to vote to initially pay above market rates (which recovers the alt generator's investment quicker = higher ROR) it also guarantees lower long term rates for the community. Since much of the town's current power is NG sourced which is running around $3/mcf today it wasn't too many years ago it was $12/mcf. Prices will obviously increase in the future. And Texas power rates are always adjusted for changes in fuel costs.

So it's simple: the alt investor gets an easy loan and a certain profit and the city gets long term electricity security and lower prices. And the very nice part of the deal: not a single $ of govt money involved. Now compare that to the SA govt spending $360 million of tax payer money and then making the same folks pay for the NG that plant will burning for the next 20 to 30 years. And producing GHG for the next 20 to 30 years. And pay whatever the future price of NG might rise to...assuming there will always be enough to purchase. Which, based on your link, seems to already be a concern.

I'll let you find the numbers: what will be the output of that $360 million NG fired plant? And what could be generated by a $360 million solar field that won't require 20 to 30 years of NG purchases? And would "Australia's largest battery storage facility" hold enough electricity that would be generated by a $360 million solar field and thus solve the intermittency problem?

And one last question: how strange is that a person who has made a living finding and selling fossil fuels for the last 4 decades pushing for more Aussie green energy? LOL.

[sparky]

.
the plan unveiled by the S.Aust. government mention that the Natural gas power station would be used for peak load
while the battery storage would be government owned and financed .
There is a fair bit of confusion on the use of the storage , is it for grid stability or is it for off peak storage ?
it's like the dam problem , flood prevention or seasonal retention

south Australia problem is that they are a power importer while the spare power available on the East coast is shrinking
this is mostly due to a lot of big coal generation having been taken off line

The West coast (Western Australia) has its own grid and disdain any talk with those Easterners since there is no point in it

underneath all that ,there is the domestic versus LNG export gas market issue , a real can of worm

[Shaved Monkey]

It will be interesting to see if SA becomes a power exporter on warm windy/sunny days.

It has been 100% renewables on a few days a year when its windy sunny and warm, so people dont need to turn aircon or heaters on
http://reneweconomy.com.au/south-austra ... day-86069/

The batteries will reduce its need to buy power and the gas fired turbo boost of power will allow it to never have to rely on the whims of the price gougers.


heres a reasonable summation of the events for those interested

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he political right, which normally parades its exclusive mortgage on reality, is left meandering in la la land, desperately defending a dysfunctional market that it has also neutered.

The proposition that you can have a genuine competitive "market" in energy generation without pricing a costly externality such as pollution, was always a hoax.

[ROCKMAN]

Monkey - Very interesting. Mucho thanks. As you'll see in my recent wind power post I'm learning more about the Aussie system. For instance perhaps you know: how much control does AEMO have over the players, especially the coal burning utilities?

[ROCKMAN]

Something new just last month:

German battery maker to offer “free power” for slice of Australian electricity market

Just months after launching its residential battery storage offering onto the Australian market, Germany battery maker Sonnen has flagged the introduction of a household solar and storage deal that threatens to disrupt the traditional retail electricity model. The deal, called “Sonnen flat,” offers free power to households using the company’s integrated solar and storage system, including for any electricity drawn from the grid when the sun goes down and stored energy is used up. In return, Sonnen has access to its customers’ installed battery storage capacity to use as a sort of virtual power plant, to provide grid balancing services to network operators – most of the time, without any discernible impact at the customer’s end.

“The deal is, you buy a Sonnen battery to go with your solar and don’t pay for electricity any more,” Sonnen Australia head Chris Parratt told One Step Off The Grid in an interview this week. “It’s like a mobile phone plan, where the customer purchases the phone up front and gets a plan, if you like. Or, if you use finance, you pay nothing up front, and pay monthly installments instead. “That’s the way we see the market going,” Parratt added. “Eventually your electricity costs will look like a mobile phone plan.”

Meanwhile, Sonnen starts to look less like a battery business and more like energy retailer, with any losses incurred by giving customers free power more than compensated for through revenue made on the balancing power market – known in Australia as Frequency Control Ancillary Services, or FCAS – where prices are higher than in the regular markets. Indeed, in Australia’s primary frequency response market – currently dominated by gas peaking plants – prices have been known to surge past $5000/MWh when the grid suffers a sudden shortage of supply and/or surge in demand, or when gas generators game the system.

As we reported here, the Australian Energy Regulator last year found that re-bidding by leading gentailers Origin Energy and AGL Energy in the South Australian electricity market in August and September caused price spikes that loaded more than $17 million of additional costs onto consumers and other generators. Little wonder, then, that Sonnen – which first rolled out its flat rate model in Germany in September last year and now has 6,000 battery systems in the German balancing market – is targeting Australia, with plans to offer the deal to customers here in the next two months. Coupled with retail electricity prices that have pushed up consumer bills by more than 100 per cent over the past 10 years; a world-leading rooftop solar uptake; and the removal of premium solar feed-in tariffs, Australia’s is a market that’s ripe for disruption.

[ROCKMAN]

"Australia’s electricity market is not agile and innovative enough to keep up". From http://theconversation.com/australias-e ... p-up-72870

[Shaved Monkey]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'M')onkey - Very interesting. Mucho thanks. As you'll see in my recent wind power post I'm learning more about the Aussie system. For instance perhaps you know: how much control does AEMO have over the players, especially the coal burning utilities?