Tanda,
Recently I read this book recommended here by someone (MBS?) Tropic of Chaos. I keep suggesting it to folks as I think it explained a lot.
That book talks about how the World Bank and other institutions tend to screw up 3rd world countries. It kinda goes like this.
A country tries to get ther stuff together and over spends on social supports. But the country is stable.
It defaults on loans.
Funding groups force economic austerity measures and reforms including the dropping of import tariffs and encourage the industrialization of the farms and capital influx.
Subsequently farmers loose their land, small business go under. Many folks move to the city in search of jobs and a living wage.
The cities concentrate the jobless and poor.
Lacking government social supports (austerity) local ad hoc groups form to provide services.
Drugs and crime increase, criminal social support groups form. They take over the humanitarian groups.
The criminal groups grow and become armed and start competing with the government and one another for control.
Civil war breaks out.
While I don't agree with everything he write he does draw a pretty consistent and logical picture.
He does not apply this to the USA, I do see parallels
I think that answers a lot of your questions. We have put our folks out of work, run them into the ghetto, and are now trying to keep a lid on an impending civil war. I don't think there is anyone in government t who is particular ally aware of this, they all have key hole view points. It's just me making sense out of what I see.
PeakOil is You
Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits
Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits
by Newfie » Mon 24 Oct 2016, 19:43:28
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Re: Truth about IPCC model global warming projections
by ralfy » Mon 24 Oct 2016, 22:35:58
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KaiserJeep', ' ')I would prefer to marinate in the angst of fossil fuel depletion, particularly petroleum depletion, which I view as a real and imminent form of Doom. This is the central theme of PO.com, which most of you ignore in favor of off-topic AGW/CC angst and Doom hysteria, which I believe is overblown reaction to natural changes in surface temperatures, caused by a complex relationship between such temperatures and the solar radiation which varies over centuries due to reasons of orbital mechanics, called Milankovitch cycles.
You seem to enjoy marinating in the AGW/CC debate actually. AGW is not off topic to peak oil because
AGW has always been a consequence of human overshoot enabled by the over consumption of fossil fuels.
Here we have an inkling of the truth. The AGW/CC Doomer Fanclub is organized around that mission statement, to put an end to the "over consumption of fossil fuels." Here's a clue: we have little choice, we consume what we need to live. All that driving around, however frantic and unfortunate, was baked into the suburban model 100 years ago. There is no getting out of it. Too late to implement local light rail, intercity electric passenger trains and long-haul electric freight. We can't even fix our rotting water and sewer systems.
So you fanboys and fangirls can just relax and stop trying to prove to everyone that we have a choice. Or that our choice matters. Or that the results matter. You and it doesn't matter. There is no avoiding dieoff. Which incidentally will have little or nothing to do with AGW.
The catch is peak oil, which has will likely not allow for over-consumption. Thus, being complacent regarding AGW is illogical, as we may be looking at several crises amplifying each other. For example, higher sea levels and more abnormal weather may lead to combinations of storm surges, floods, and drought, all of which amplify problems concerning food shortages or more expensive food, more oil needed for relief operations, etc.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits
by Revi » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 09:28:18
Neither presidential candidate really knows what's going on. People know what's popular to know. Peak Oil is not popular any more, so it's died as popular knowledge. I think they will get a briefing by some people who are in the know as soon as they get in there, since maybe the military knows a bit about it, but they won't trouble themselves about the problem. Who ever wins this race gets the booby prize. They will be unable to get the promised "growth" going again, and they won't be able to explain why. It's going to be interesting.
Meanwhile back to rural vs. urban. I think it matters if you are rich. If you're rich a city is a great place to be. If you are poor, I think it's better to be poor in the country since at least you can eat, if you are willing to grow, hunt and forage some stuff. Most people would rather starve in the city, so that takes the pressure off of most rural areas.
Right now it's tough in most rural areas. There is no price for wood here in Maine for example. We used to have a thriving wood products industry, but it's dead or dying fast right now.
Meanwhile back to rural vs. urban. I think it matters if you are rich. If you're rich a city is a great place to be. If you are poor, I think it's better to be poor in the country since at least you can eat, if you are willing to grow, hunt and forage some stuff. Most people would rather starve in the city, so that takes the pressure off of most rural areas.
Right now it's tough in most rural areas. There is no price for wood here in Maine for example. We used to have a thriving wood products industry, but it's dead or dying fast right now.
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits
by Newfie » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 10:27:00
Revi,
FWIW, there is also a psychological component. It doesn't effect all but for some us living in the city, even in the nicest parts, is distressing, depressing. I don't know what the differentiator is but its real, for at least some of us. I was just miserable.
FWIW, there is also a psychological component. It doesn't effect all but for some us living in the city, even in the nicest parts, is distressing, depressing. I don't know what the differentiator is but its real, for at least some of us. I was just miserable.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits
by GHung » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 11:57:19
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'R')evi,
FWIW, there is also a psychological component. It doesn't effect all but for some us living in the city, even in the nicest parts, is distressing, depressing. I don't know what the differentiator is but its real, for at least some of us. I was just miserable.
FWIW, there is also a psychological component. It doesn't effect all but for some us living in the city, even in the nicest parts, is distressing, depressing. I don't know what the differentiator is but its real, for at least some of us. I was just miserable.
The "psychological component" is paramount, IMO. Having lived in urban, suburban and rural settings, I can attest to that. Our city friends come to visit, comment on the quiet beauty, then often proceed to speed-talk, complain about poor 3G/4G connections, make phone calls, and look for "something to do". They are clearly used to being over-stimulated. I find myself being far less reactionary and more contemplative, living in the forest, but not detached from what is happening in the real world. When out and about, it's very easy to spot folks who "ain't from around here" just by how they drive (always up each other's asses and impatient).
Financially, we spend much less, in part because of mind-set, and because there are fewer demands on our pocketbook and fewer triggers to spend money. Costs for goods and energy are comparable, and even though destinations are farther apart, we drive less, and since there are no traffic jambs, we spend less time sitting in the car going nowhere while burning hydrocarbons. Our county has two traffic lights. Property taxes are much lower, and most folks pay on time to stay off of the 'delinquent tax' list published in the local paper every March. It's mainly developers and non-resident property owners who are delinquent. Action against locals and long-time residents who have genuine trouble paying their property taxes are very rare, especially on homesteads and farm land.
We couldn't live our frugal off-grid lifestyle in the city or suburbs; probably lots of ordinances against that sort of thing.
We know our neighbors and get along even if we disagree on some things. We also know our local politicians and law enforcement; most of them anyway, and feel our vote counts for more, locally. Government services are far more accessible; I've never waited in line to see the people in the tax office; renewing drivers licenses is quick and easy, and I never have to stand in line to vote. Before the Supreme Court axed North Carolina's voter ID law, the pole workers didn't even ask for my ID because they've all known me for years. I sometimes write to the opinion section of the local paper, it always gets published, and I often get phone calls from folks who appreciate what I say. People who don't agree with me will generally say so in next week's paper.
Crime is low. They publish an "arrest report" every week and there are usually only 4-6 arrests reported, some weeks none. The entire county is like a big 'neiborhood watch', though folks mind their own business for the most part. Violent crime like murder is rare, though domestic violence is more common than most would like, and absolutely not tolerated.
I'm not sure if it's a downside, but trips to the city are increasingly stressful, and after we make our visits, I find myself scurrying back to the shelter of our mountains and a more tolerable society. It's not perfect, but our lifestyle is certainly deeply improved. Some folks simply can't adapt to rural life which is fine with me since they often come here and try to change things, generally without much success. They are better off living the lives they know, somewhere else. Meanwhile, I'm confident that we live in a place that will come together, whatever the future holds, to either solve problems locally, or adapt to the new realities. Maybe it's just me, but I think most cities and their suburbs will be toast.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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