[Newfie]

Leaving a better world, there's an old time concept you don't hear much. Thanks for bringing it up.

[GHung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', '
')Predicting the behavior of hyper-complex systems is nearly impossible. Predicting trends, not so much.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'D')oomers=Death cult. Lets crash the global economy and kill billions but lets not say that directly. You want to help out on over-population and a negative impact on the environment, stop eating.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '
')So I think where we disagree is magnitude. Where do you come up with 5% reduction in economic activity over time (everyone won't do this at once clearly) will crash the entire system?

Why couldn't it be 20%? Or even 40% if it's somewhat gradual? People doing this will clearly be reducing their debt, BTW.

I think we can put some parameters on this. Clearly 100% will do it, by definition. 2% wont. (We had about a 2% global reduction in the 2008-9 crash, rapidly and involuntarily. It was scary and crashed the stock markets about 40%. People were worried about a possible depression. But all it caused was a deep recession, and some scaling back.) And for most people, more than perhaps 30%, or 50% at most would induce real hardship (hunger, lack of heat/cooling, transport, medical care, etc.) And people aren't going to do THAT en masse, unless they have no choice.

Do you have anything more than a gut feel that 5% would do it? (And complaining about things like "all the debt" doesn't come close to justifying 5%, without real specifics as to how/why the dominos would fall).

[radon1]

Please, don't crash the global economic system. Please. Do whatever, may be even burn some furniture, but please don't crash the global economic system.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', '
')I think you have us confused with some other people. We are trying to avert the premature death of billions.
Cheers

[onlooker]

So Radon, you just wish to continue on the Mass Extinction path. How thoughtful, of future generations.

[GHung]

Radon1 said;
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd if you'd really like to get a taste of your crash paradise, then why wouldn't you start from yourself. Go to the forest to settle there, cut all (I empasise - ALL) ties with the global economic system, including no tools, no electricity, no housing - nothing, and lead us by example from out there.

[Newfie]

Carinke,

I think the hornets nest you stepped onto has to do with understanding that our current system will kill more billions than almost any alternative. I believe that many if not most people find it quite literally IMPOSSIBLE to understand how this can be so. Yet it is. You are a disturbing messenger.

There is a smaller subset who don't find it in their portfolio to look that far forward. Their vision of responsibility is limited to their lifetime if not the here and now. Cog is of this ilk, perhaps due to religious beliefs. Surely many fall into that catagory. Yet even Ibon also has some elements of this when he says our kids will adapt to the world they find.

I'm not criticizing anyone. The more I contemplate the situation we find ourselves in the more hopeless and depressed I get. Staying busy and doing what I can is a partial tonic. Contemplating this thread yesterday I was reminded by some religious music of the power of God and leaving things to his hand.

Hundreds of years ago most Western folks were serfs, little better than slaves, they had precious little control. Perhaps the whole God meme developed in part to relieve the depression.

As an atheist God gives me no relief. Yet I recognize the power and to some extent the wisdom of letting go.

It a cumumdrum for sure. God save us all.

[dohboi]

Good insights here, Newf. Well articulated.

(except it's conundrum, not cumumdrum, although that has a certain magical charm to it, actually!)

[Cog]

I hole-hardedly agree, but allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there.

Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go.

Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.

[Hawkcreek]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I') hole-hardedly agree, but allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies. We often put our false morality on a petal stool like a bunch of pre-Madonnas, but you all seem to be taking something very valuable for granite. So I ask of you to mustard up all the strength you can because it is a doggy dog world out there.

Although there is some merit to what you are saying it seems like you have a huge ship on your shoulder. In your argument you seem to throw everything in but the kids Nsync, and even though you are having a feel day with this I am here to bring you back into reality. I have a sick sense when it comes to these types of things. It is almost spooky, because I cannot turn a blonde eye to these glaring flaws in your rhetoric. I have zero taller ants when it comes to people spouting out hate in the name of moral righteousness. You just need to remember what comes around is all around, and when supply and command fails you will be the first to go.

Make my words, when you get down to brass stacks it doesn't take rocket appliances to get two birds stoned at once. It's clear who makes the pants in this relationship, and sometimes you just have to swallow your prize and accept the facts. You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cog', 'I') hole-hardedly agree, but allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies.

...

You might have to come to this conclusion through denial and error but I swear on my mother's mating name that when you put the petal to the medal you will pass with flying carpets like it’s a peach of cake.

[Newfie]

1+ even it was aimed at all to frequent gaffs (it's all the iPhones fault anyway)!

[careinke]

COG well done, butt eye stink thee fraze is "peace of pi".

[radon1]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('GHung', '
')
Typical silly hyperbolic absolutist response.

[GHung]

radon said; 'Check your recent link to Greer's report for more silly responses."

What? Try to make sense, radon. I know it's hard for you, but try.

[onlooker]

In the hearts and minds of the people, in the competition between business as usual and lets crash the global economic system it sure seems BAU is winning out as attested to by this story.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns- ... story.html
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')lobal Trumpism seen harming efforts to reduce climate pollution

[dohboi]

The one 'hope' some of us have is that tRump will prove so totally venal and incompetent that he will trigger a total collapse of the world economy.

Of course, the will greatly harm many people, and will probably be accompanied by various military actions that will harm more.

But if it ends up greatly diminishing the capacity of global industrial civilization (= planetary death machine), perhaps it would be worth it?

[onlooker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut if it ends up greatly diminishing the capacity of global industrial civilization (= planetary death machine), perhaps it would be worth it?