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Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 14 Jun 2016, 20:33:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')The StarvingLion character was designed to appeal to people with a certain mindset. He is an archetype, like you are. That way, when people tune in to these fake discussions, they see characters they can either identify with or hate. The regular cast controls the "frame" of all debates that take place here.


Designed? By whom? You think playing the tinfoil card increases the value of your hand?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')I am just saying that energy flows are invisible.


So that means you can manufacture any bullshit statistics you want. Kind of like the tooth fairy. How convenient.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 14 Jun 2016, 21:24:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I') long for the day your insults and cheap tactics bring you a permanent doom.


And people wonder why I pick the GIFs I do. Hey, if it walks like a dodo, types like a dodo, it's a dodo.

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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 14 Jun 2016, 21:55:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', 'O')GP only gets data from about 32% of world oil producers. They don't explain how the producers gauge their total energy consumption.
As mentioned in the study, you can see detailed numbers, calculations, and references in the appendixes. Those can be downloaded here:
JEC Downloads

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', 'I')t's just another net energy estimate. They are a dime a dozen it seems.
Such a hand-waving dismissal can be done to any subject. "The ETP model is just another attempt at curve fitting. These are a dime a dozen these days."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', 'I') am not dissing ERoEI estimates. I am just saying that energy flows are invisible.
There's nothing invisible about oil & gas production & consumption. It is readily quantifiable.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', 'Y')ou can't possibly accurately account for all of the energy that goes into the production of oil using this type of additive approach. Energy flows are just too complex. Because some things are inevitably missed, I believe that all of the ERoEI estimates done to date are too high.
These questions often arise around what boundary conditions you draw. For example:
Did you include the energy to make pipes? How about the energy in the tools that make the pipes? You can look at a net energy study and say "I think the boundary conditions they used are too narrow" and it would be a perfectly valid complaint. On the other hand, I have read net energy analysis that go the other way as well: they are too broad in my opinion. Hall's "Tilting at Windmills" comes to mind. The point is you can point out the limitations of such studies but they do not deserve the kind of hand-waving dismissal you just did.
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 14 Jun 2016, 23:58:00

k - "Did you include the energy to make pipes? " And you don't have to stop there: there's the energy used to ship the casing...sometimes half way around the globe. And then there's the energy used to turn iron ore into steel. And the energy used to ship the ore to the foundries. And the energy used to mine the ore.

But back to what's really critical...and that has nothing to do with those individual EROEI components because no drilling decision has ever used the EROEI of the casing. But we do use the cost of the casing in our economic analysis. Likewise the EROEI of the construction of a huge semi offshore rig plays no part in deciding to develop a Deep Water field. But the day rate (which can vary from $300,000 to $800,000 per day for the same rig) can have a huge impact on those decisions. How big? About 6 months ago a company early terminated long term contracts for two such rigs...and paid a penalty of $300 MILLION. Yes...$300 million to NOT DRILL Deep Water wells. And the EROEI of those projects (just like all the other cancelled drilling projects) remains unchanged.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 03:01:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'k') - "Did you include the energy to make pipes? " And you don't have to stop there: there's the energy used to ship the casing...sometimes half way around the globe. And then there's the energy used to turn iron ore into steel. And the energy used to ship the ore to the foundries. And the energy used to mine the ore.

But back to what's really critical...and that has nothing to do with those individual EROEI components because no drilling decision has ever used the EROEI of the casing. But we do use the cost of the casing in our economic analysis. Likewise the EROEI of the construction of a huge semi offshore rig plays no part in deciding to develop a Deep Water field. But the day rate (which can vary from $300,000 to $800,000 per day for the same rig) can have a huge impact on those decisions. How big? About 6 months ago a company early terminated long term contracts for two such rigs...and paid a penalty of $300 MILLION. Yes...$300 million to NOT DRILL Deep Water wells. And the EROEI of those projects (just like all the other cancelled drilling projects) remains unchanged.
+1
At the end of the day it's economics that determine what gets drilled.
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby Smurfs1976 » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 09:40:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', 'A')t the end of the day it's economics that determine what gets drilled.


And even if the EROEI were negative it could still be worthwhile to drill if most of that energy is coming from some source that isn't oil and/or gas.

If all the energy came from oil then economically it's never going to work to have an EROEI that isn't positive. You're not going to make money burning 2 barrels of oil in order to extract one barrel from the ground.

But if most of the energy used is from hydro, nuclear, coal etc then that relationship breaks down simply because if the oil price is reasonably high then a BTU of energy from oil has a far higher financial value than a BTU from hydro etc. In that case using the hydro (or coal etc) equivalent of 2 barrels in order to extract 1 barrel could well be profitable.

Same logic with anything. Using a tonne of gold in order to extract half a tonne of gold can't possibly be profitable but using a tonne of coal in order to extract half a tonne of gold sure could be profitable.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:23:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', '
')At the end of the day it's economics that determine what gets drilled.


Always has been. Is today. Always will be.

I wonder why people want to ignore the empirical reality of a process or industry, and make stuff up?

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Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby Whatever » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:06:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Smurfs1976', 'I')f all the energy came from oil then economically it's never going to work to have an EROEI that isn't positive. You're not going to make money burning 2 barrels of oil in order to extract one barrel from the ground.

But if most of the energy used is from hydro, nuclear, coal etc then that relationship breaks down...

Energy is a zero sum game. Hydro, nuclear, and coal are already being used for something. If you want to use some of this energy to produce oil, you will have to take it away from some other current use. If you do that, you are just robbing Peter to pay Paul. The total immediately available energy cannot fall or the economy will fall with it. To make up for the loss of energy from oil, you would have to grow the capacity of alternatives at the same rate you are losing energy from oil. If it were possible to grow the capacity of alternatives so easily, why are we still using oil?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', 'I') wonder why people want to ignore the empirical reality of a process or industry, and make stuff up?

The empirical reality is that all processes in the universe are subject to the laws of thermodynamics. This includes the oil production process. Sorry. You are the one who is ignoring empirical reality and making stuff up by suggesting that the oil industry is somehow exempt from the laws of thermodynamics.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kublikhan', 'A')t the end of the day it's economics that determine what gets drilled.

But at the beginning of the day, it's the total immediately available energy that determines the health of the economy in which all economic drilling decisions are made. Thus economics may determine which particular wells might be drilled, but thermodynamics will determine how much total oil is produced in the world (even if all human economic decisions are based on money). Thermodynamics really runs the show, but since energy flows are invisible, humans blindly use economics to attempt to "control" things. Life is a thermodynamic process and humans are no different than yeast in a vat. The individual eating decisions of a particular yeast cell will not make any difference to the overall thermodynamics of the system.

Thermodynamics determines the maximum size of the pie, economics cuts it into pieces.



--Futilitist 8)
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby ennui2 » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:18:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')But at the beginning of the day, it's the total immediately available energy that determines the health of the economy in which all economic drilling decisions are made.


True, but ETP warps this to its own means. It's NOT true that oil is the only resource that drives the economy. It's not even the only fossil fuel at the foundation of the house of cards. Coal and gas are also important players.

Step back and ALL resources including those not normally factored in (like ecological ones, a viable climate, fertile soil, rainfall, fresh water, road quality, a functional central government and relatively low crime-rate) facilitate BAU as we know it.

You can't just reduce everything down to oil and oil alone. It may be the most vital resource, but it isn't the only one.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby Whatever » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:51:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Futilitist', '
')But at the beginning of the day, it's the total immediately available energy that determines the health of the economy in which all economic drilling decisions are made.

True, but ETP warps this to its own means. It's NOT true that oil is the only resource that drives the economy. It's not even the only fossil fuel at the foundation of the house of cards. Coal and gas are also important players.

I know. That is why I said it was the total immediately available energy that determines the health of the economy. That total includes coal and gas, as well as all other alternatives.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'S')tep back and ALL resources including those not normally factored in (like ecological ones, a viable climate, fertile soil, rainfall, fresh water, road quality, a functional central government and relatively low crime-rate) facilitate BAU as we know it.

I know.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'Y')ou can't just reduce everything down to oil and oil alone. It may be the most vital resource, but it isn't the only one.

Oil is responsible for 38% of total energy. If the ERoEI of oil declines rapidly, like it is doing now, alternatives may be used to fill the gap where possible. But these alternatives aren't just sitting idly by and waiting for someone to use them. They are already being utilized. If they are diverted to make up for the falling energy contribution of oil, they are no longer available for their original use. The capacity of these alternatives must actually grow at the same rate that the energy is lost from oil. If not, the total available energy will shrink and so will the economy. If the economy begins to shrink, there will not be any surplus energy available to to grow the capacity of alternatives. The system will collapse.



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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby ennui2 » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 13:15:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')Oil is responsible for 38% of total energy. If the ERoEI of oil declines rapidly, like it is doing now, alternatives may be used to fill the gap where possible.


OK, let's stop you right there. That being the case, do you really think we're just going to fall into a one-way economic doomsday in 4 years? Really? I don't necessarily believe in the idea that the market will save us, but the market DOES have a way of adapting. Considering that things are moving slower than peakers predicted, the market has more of a chance to react than you think. That's why fracking happened in the first place. So if you concede that alternatives will be used to fill the gap, you can just write off the idea of your 4-year doomsday scenario. We've got more of a buffer to kick the can down the road. I'm not saying it's good times forever, just that there's a longer tail here than ETP makes it seem.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 13:26:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou are the one who is ignoring empirical reality and making stuff up by suggesting that the oil industry is somehow exempt from the laws of thermodynamics. 


No one here has ever said anything is exempt from the Laws of Thermodynamics. What you seem to be confused about is that thermodynamics can be used to describe systems and processes but it is not the driving force behind them actually happening . As an example a man in a car on a steep hill finds his brakes have gone and he has a half mile downhill run with a brick wall at the end. Various rules in physics can be used to describe how that car will proceed down the hill and what the end result will be, Newtons laws apply as does thermodynamics. But none of these laws put that car on the hill nor determined the brakes would fail in the first place. Likewise thermodynamics on their own do not cause wells to be drilled, they can be used to describe the overall system of various processes involved but they do not determine the fact the wells are drilled in the first place, which is of course the only source of production and hence peak considerations. I can use thermodynamics to describe the overall process of an earthquake but that consideration does not cause the earthquake to occur in the first place.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hermodynamics determines the maximum size of the pie, economics cuts it into pieces.

Not true. The maximum size of the pie is determined by a host of things….1. how much organic matter was ever made available, 2. How much of that organic matter has been subject to the appropriate heat and time through burial to generate hydrocarbons, 3. How much of that hydrocarbon is trapped either structurally or stratigraphically, 4. How much of that hydrocarbon is preserved and not lost to oxidation or leakage, 5. How much of that hydrocarbon can ever be technically recovered 6. How much can ever be economically recovered. Although you can sit back and use thermodynamics to describe these processes the theory does not control their occurrence. There are also a host of considerations that can determine what ultimate reserves are recognized. Economics is certainly one and given we are not dealing with a closed energy system (ie. You can use other energy sources to drill wells and recover hydrocarbons, in fact we have been doing so for a long time such as in the North Sea where a number of offshore platforms are run off of wind turbine supplied electricity) it is an important consideration. Other factors could be “green considerations” which might determine that all of the coal resources available to us are not utilized or that there is a quicker conversion to gas versus oil, or access considerations where substantial hydrocarbons might be located in areas that are either environmentally sensitive or are in areas governed by political strife. Again thermodynamics does not cause those situations to occur even though anything that happens will be consistent with all physical laws.
If you are at a juncture in the road you can choose to go left, right or continue straight ahead. Each direction will result in a different outcome. Thermodynamics can describe what happens along each path as you take it but ultimately it has nothing to do with the decision you made of which path to take and hence does not control the ultimate outcome.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby Whatever » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 14:11:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')Oil is responsible for 38% of total energy. If the ERoEI of oil declines rapidly, like it is doing now, alternatives may be used to fill the gap where possible.

OK, let's stop you right there. That being the case...

No. That is not the case. In the very next sentence, I went on to say:
"But these alternatives aren't just sitting idly by and waiting for someone to use them. They are already being utilized. If they are diverted to make up for the falling energy contribution of oil, they are no longer available for their original use. The capacity of these alternatives must actually grow at the same rate that the energy is lost from oil. If not, the total available energy will shrink and so will the economy. If the economy begins to shrink, there will not be any surplus energy available to to grow the capacity of alternatives. The system will collapse."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', '.')..do you really think we're just going to fall into a one-way economic doomsday in 4 years? Really?

Yes. Really. But you still are not paraphrasing it quite right. I am saying that we already falling into an economic doomsday. I don't think we can last for 4 years before a rapid, total collapse overtakes the system.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'I') don't necessarily believe in the idea that the market will save us, but the market DOES have a way of adapting. Considering that things are moving slower than peakers predicted, the market has more of a chance to react than you think.

The speed that "peakers" predicted will not affect the actual speed of collapse. The market will respond in many ways, but none of them will supersede the laws of physics.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'T')hat's why fracking happened in the first place.
Fracking turned out to be too energetically expensive to do anything but slightly delay the inevitable endgame. Now that fracking is fading away, things will get worse faster.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'S')o if you concede that alternatives will be used to fill the gap, you can just write off the idea of your 4-year doomsday scenario.
I did not concede that using alternatives would be able to fill the gap without creating another gap. Energy is a zero sum game, remember? It will not be physically possible to continue to grow the capacity of alternatives once total energy has begun to decline. It takes energy to produce energy. Without surplus energy, you cannot grow the capacity of alternatives.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'W')e've got more of a buffer to kick the can down the road. I'm not saying it's good times forever, just that there's a longer tail here than ETP makes it seem.
No. Past performance does not guarantee future performance. Now that total energy has begun to decline, it's a whole new ballgame.



---Futilitist 8)
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby ennui2 » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 14:23:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')If they are diverted to make up for the falling energy contribution of oil, they are no longer available for their original use.


Your idea of robbing peter to pay paul does not apply if the resource in question isn't being used at maximum capacity. In the case of coal, specifically, coal is not being mined at maximum capacity due to environmental concerns and because gas is cheaper. There is also the negawatt side of the equation, shifts to EVs, ridesharing, telecommuting, etc... which helps lessen demand. Moral of the story is we live in a dynamic world with several variables. You can't just extrapolate the future based on how things are done now. That's why the original peak-oil doomsday scenarios didn't pan out, because they were fixated on the theoretical math of Hubbert's curve and didn't factor in fracking. ETP is just a continuation of a desire by some to simplify a complex system down via an algorithm.

In a larger time window (ala Limits to Growth) such algorithms might be useful. As a way to predict a fast-crash doomsday in less than 10 years? Probably not.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')I am saying that we already falling into an economic doomsday.


So you've chosen to ignore Copious' thread which is constantly updated with positive economic metrics?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')Fracking turned out to be too energetically expensive to do anything but slightly delay the inevitable endgame. Now that fracking is fading away, things will get worse faster.


Fracking juiced the economy back from recession, and it will have at least one second wind before all is said and done.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')Energy is a zero sum game, remember?


The universe is a zero-sum-game, hence the heat-death of the universe as it continues to expand into nothingness. That's not the question. The devil's in the details, the who, what, where, why. The endpoint isn't in dispute.

The second law is a real bummer, I admit. Coming to grips with the fact that nothing lasts forever is tough. Reacting to the trauma by predicting doomsday in 4 years is going overboard.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Whatever', '
')Now that total energy has begun to decline, it's a whole new ballgame.

Again, the universe has been in decline since the big-bang. That's why we can look at the residual heat-profile of the big bang, the cosmic background radiation. That can't be twisted into backing some sort of ultra-fast-crash scenario. You have to get down into the weeds to prove that and not keep retreating back to theoretical physics.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby Whatever » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 15:30:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'F')racking juiced the economy back from recession, and it will have at least one second wind before all is said and done.

I seriously doubt that. The world economy has slipped back into recession. It began at the same time as the oil glut. This is all consistent with the Etp model. Here is a graph of Gross World Product:

Image

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'S')o you've chosen to ignore Copious' thread which is constantly updated with positive economic metrics?

I had no idea that such a thread existed. Now that I do know about it, I will definitely choose to ignore it. Thanks.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', 'I')f you are at a juncture in the road you can choose to go left, right or continue straight ahead. Each direction will result in a different outcome. Thermodynamics can describe what happens along each path as you take it but ultimately it has nothing to do with the decision you made of which path to take and hence does not control the ultimate outcome.

Thermodynamics is *WAY* more powerful than any little human decision. The second law of thermodynamics sets the arrow of time. That is why backing up is not one of your choices. And each of your remaining "choices" - left, right, or straight ahead - are also predetermined by their thermodynamic viability. And you can't know that in advance, so your "choice" isn't much of a real choice anyway. A blind guess is not a choice and whatever decision you actually make, it cannot violate the laws of thermodynamics. Thermodynamics runs the show.

The economic decisions of an individual oil company do not control peak oil. Individual oil companies compete for profits. The Maximum Power Principle guarantees that the sum of ALL economic decisions will work to maximize energy usage at the greatest possible efficiency. It took a lot of individual blind decisions to get us on our current path. We didn't plan it in advance. We can't decide to start planning it now.

The laws of thermodynamics ultimately determine the limits to a system's growth. Humans cannot control thermodynamic limits with money decisions.



---Futilitist 8)
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby StarvingLion » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:16:51

Shale is a ponzi.Wind is a ponzi.Solar is a ponzi.

https://thiscondensedlife.wordpress.com ... w-lessons/

"One of the main themes of the book is that the physicists, mathematicians and other STEM PhDs that work on Wall Street are often prevented from understanding their own roles within their companies. What I mean by this is that upper management in many Wall Street companies actively try to impede people with a more technical leaning from gaining a broad overview of the firm’s intentions and its role in the economy as a whole. The PhDs are hired to solve puzzles, not to understand the meaning of the puzzles they are solving. Indeed, many STEM PhDs are not even interested in knowing the consequences of the problems they are solving. This is just one of the parts of the book that I found to be particularly disturbing."
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby Whatever » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:22:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('StarvingLion', 'S')hale is a ponzi.Wind is a ponzi.Solar is a ponzi.

I agree.



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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 16:37:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hermodynamics is *WAY* more powerful than any little human decision. The second law of thermodynamics sets the arrow of time. That is why backing up is not one of your choices. And each of your remaining "choices" - left, right, or straight ahead - are also predetermined by their thermodynamic viability.


complete and utter horse pucky. If I know nothing about the right left or straight ahead paths there can be no way that thermodynamics in anyway comes into my decision, you can use it after the fact to analyze the path taken but it does not control the fact that path was taken. Everyday we make decisions like this and that goes for what oil and gas companies do.

Not sure why you don't just start a religion...you already have the invisible god that controls everything we do, we don't have to take responsibility for our actions in your religion, you don't have to prove your god is controlling everything you simply just make the statement he controls everything on and on and on again.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Maximum Power Principle guarantees that the sum of ALL economic decisions will work to maximize energy usage at the greatest possible efficiency.

well it doesn't guaranty that we would maximize energy usage by using coal to create power in order to drill or make tubulars and consumable, instead in North America we are shutting down high EROEI coal plants at the expense of lower EROEI oil and gas because of environmental concerns. Arguably we would be maximizing energy usage by producing all we could from Nigeria, Libya, Iran and Iraq but we can't do to political and security concerns. And as I pointed out some pages back oil companies often decide to pursue projects that have lower EROEI's than competing projects for economic considerations.
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Re: Low oil price, high production equals peak oil? Pt. 3

Unread postby Whatever » Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:21:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Futilitist', 'T')hermodynamics is *WAY* more powerful than any little human decision. The second law of thermodynamics sets the arrow of time. That is why backing up is not one of your choices. And each of your remaining "choices" - left, right, or straight ahead - are also predetermined by their thermodynamic viability.

complete and utter horse pucky.

Hey, watch your language there, buddy!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', 'I')f I know nothing about the right left or straight ahead paths there can be no way that thermodynamics in anyway comes into my decision, you can use it after the fact to analyze the path taken but it does not control the fact that path was taken.

We are talking about thermodynamic limits. We are not talking about using thermodynamics to guide our choices. So your entire argument is as irrelevant as it was a couple of pages back.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', 'N')ot sure why you don't just start a religion...

I am an atheist.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', 'y')ou already have the invisible god that controls everything we do, we don't have to take responsibility for our actions in your religion, you don't have to prove your god is controlling everything you simply just make the statement he controls everything on and on and on again.
You are getting a little carried away there, rockdoc. Who said anything about not having to take responsibility for our actions? This religion sh*t has nothing to do with the topic of thermodynamic limits.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Futilitist', 'T')he Maximum Power Principle guarantees that the sum of ALL economic decisions will work to maximize energy usage at the greatest possible efficiency.
well it doesn't guaranty that we would maximize energy usage by using coal to create power in order to drill or make tubulars and consumable, instead in North America we are shutting down high EROEI coal plants at the expense of lower EROEI oil and gas because of environmental concerns. Arguably we would be maximizing energy usage by producing all we could from Nigeria, Libya, Iran and Iraq but we can't do to political and security concerns.
First religion, and now you are arguing politics.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', 'A')nd as I pointed out some pages back oil companies often decide to pursue projects that have lower EROEI's than competing projects for economic considerations.
So what?



---Futilitist 8)
Last edited by Whatever on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 17:30:37, edited 2 times in total.
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