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THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 30 Oct 2015, 11:59:11

"they are not burned" refers to "not all useable calroies are inevitably used".

Sheesh I hate this topic. That which is excreted is still part of out. That which is burned is still part of out.

Out is out. It doesn't imply method. The XYZ calorie of energy goes SOMEWHERE. When the calorie of energy goes OUT of the body, whether pee or heat or kinetic or tag on solids or breathed out magic fairy dust, it is OUT, and it counts as OUT. in - out = change in fat mass.

Calories get used, discarded or stored. Both used and discarded are "out".

calories burned is *NOT* the full set of out.

That is why out is so hard to calculate, or even tolerably estimate.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 30 Oct 2015, 12:35:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')gent, "The XYZ calorie of energy goes SOMEWHERE." Different metabolisms for different folks. IE the calories are simply burned by thin people while the person is at rest. Garg Taubes describes this phenomena; thin folks burn calories because they are thin (they have a thin metabolism), fat folks don't because they are fat. Not the other way around. We like to blame the person for being fat. It is wrong science and cruel.


Out is out. Burn is out. Not everyone burns calories at the same rate or in the same manner. And people definitely store fat in different places based upon genetic and other factors. I do not care for fault or blame, it is irrelevant and stupid. You all can blame me if you'd like, I care not.

I am here strictly to defend the concept that *IF* you can calculate in. *AND* and you can calculate out, then (and only then) you can predict a change in fat mass.

And I note, again, *OUT* is much harder to calculate than *IN*. You can't just take an epidemiological table, and say, Bob, you burn x cal / day. Doesn't work that way. You can use said table to know how many calories of grain to ship to a city of 5,000,000; and for that, it works like a champ. But for Bob specifically, you have to think specifically, you have to find his lean mass, you have to know his vo2max; then you have to measure everything he does in a day, the composition of what he eats, and on and on. You *can* figure it out; but it is very hard, and it is very individual.

And when you do figure it out. A 3500 kcal deficit over a period of time will result in a loss of one pound of fat; usually from the most inconvenient, inapproriate location possible.

You do mention teens, so I'd like to note here; bone, organ, muscle growth are very, very expensive; and will render this sort of math hopeless. Teens should not restrict their intake unless they are noticeably gaining inappropriate amounts of fat in inappropriate places.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 30 Oct 2015, 13:30:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'A')gent you want to applaud the runner for his lean physique and blame the fatty for her obesity. It is a easy yet cruel description that is simply wrong.


Nope. I'm blaming me for her obesity, if there's any blame to be had.

If the mass challenged female wishes to change her body composition, she can, but it is very, very hard; and I might note from experience, extremely and continuously painful. In order to do so, said female must figure out what her body is doing, what and how it is utilizing energy, how it is responding to insulin and other hormones, and how it responds to different forms of exercise, calorie restriction, and calorie type ratio selection. If she pursues this process, the pain will be real, excruciating, and continuous; there is no escape from it, no relief from it, and it will linger for years even after achieving the desired body composition, and even the slightest dip in discipline and her body composition will return, very quickly, to its baseline state.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne more time: runners are not thin because they run, rather they run because they are thin.

I am not anywhere near thin. I run. Or now, bike, because well, I used to have knees with soft stuff in them, and now just have knees with not so soft stuff in them. I do this in opposition to what my body wants to do. I require lawful, prescription pain meds, well monitored by a physician, which I have taken daily for years, to do it. But do it I most certainly can.

By doing it, I am able to alter my body composition in opposition to what my body's programming tells me to do.

I do not believe however, anyone deserves any blame (or honestly credit) for being able or unable, willing or unwilling to do such a thing. I do it myself simply as a statement to my body, that *I* am running the show, and it will comply, or it will die.

There is no blame, for your "fatty" to assign. They are merely choices, balancing certain physical states vs the cost of acquiring or accepting those states. There is nothing wrong with the "fatty" being a "fatty". It does increase her risk of certain unfavorable health results; but the perceived cost of those health results could easily be much lower than the perceived cost of what it would take for "fatty" to alter her body composition in a significant way.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 12 Feb 2016, 19:44:02

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-1 ... vel-record
Americans Have Never Been Fatter: Obesity Rate Rises To Highest Level On Record
Consequently, this generation of Americans is the first whose life expectancy will decrease rather than increase.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby dissident » Fri 12 Feb 2016, 19:58:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'h')ttp://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-12/americans-have-never-been-fatter-obesity-rate-rises-highest-level-record
Americans Have Never Been Fatter: Obesity Rate Rises To Highest Level On Record
Consequently, this generation of Americans is the first whose life expectancy will decrease rather than increase.


Considering that the genetics has not changed, other factors are responsible. And sitting in front of the computer does not explain it since the vast majority of people do not get fat by sitting in front of a terminal. But when it comes to the chemical composition of food we have a serious causal factor. We are seeing the triumph of the low fat, high carbohydrate food craze instigated by the politicians during the 1970s (look at the food pyramid, an industry concocted pile of BS) combined with increasing processed food consumption with a chemical profile unlike what humans have eaten since they evolved. Then there are environmental factors and not just food. The environment is progressively loaded with exotic organic compounds (carcinogens, hormone mimics) that humans have not been exposed to before either. While the politicians pat themselves on the back for reducing NOx levels, they could care less about VOCs (volatile organic compounds).
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 12 Feb 2016, 20:02:43

Thanks dissident for highlighting these less known causative factors. Yes the food pyramid was concocted to see vast amounts of wheat and corn which the US grain belt so prodigiously produces.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 12 Feb 2016, 21:52:05

Don't think of exercise as burning calories.

Find something you think is fun and go do it. Again. Again. Harder. Faster. Again. Steeper. Faster. Slower. Uh. Uh. Ahhhh.

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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 Feb 2016, 01:11:37

Against better judgement we went into a Walmart today. While there decided to get something for diner. After some searching we found some, a few, frozen vegetables.

Frankly we were really set back by the physical condition of the folks I. The store. The vast majority were obese, some grossly so. It wasn't an availability thing, simple veggies were there. It wasn't a money thing, the processed food cost more. So yeah our diet sucks, because we make bad choices. So I had a tod of rum with diner, my bad choice.

On the bright side these folks are in the demographic that says I'll live to 78 on average. From the looks of them I'll live to be 103.

All joking, it's no wonder our health care expenses are so high. These folks look just terrible, fat, can't walk, all kinds of joint problems, and they just plain look miserable. I wouldn't sell life insurance to any of them.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 13 Feb 2016, 14:14:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newfie', 'A')gainst better judgement we went into a Walmart today. While there decided to get something for diner. After some searching we found some, a few, frozen vegetables.

Frankly we were really set back by the physical condition of the folks I. The store. The vast majority were obese, some grossly so. It wasn't an availability thing, simple veggies were there. It wasn't a money thing, the processed food cost more. So yeah our diet sucks, because we make bad choices. So I had a tod of rum with diner, my bad choice.

On the bright side these folks are in the demographic that says I'll live to 78 on average. From the looks of them I'll live to be 103.

All joking, it's no wonder our health care expenses are so high. These folks look just terrible, fat, can't walk, all kinds of joint problems, and they just plain look miserable. I wouldn't sell life insurance to any of them.


Corporate Chemical Goo aka processed food is somewhat more expensive, but it is also formulated to stimulate the reward center of the brain in the same fashion any addictive substance does. Brain scans of volunteers consuming small doses of cocaine, heroin and fructose show the same reward center of the brain lighting up like a Christmas tree in a dark forest. The corporate food processors figured this out back around 1978 and just about every food you can think of that comes in a convenient package has a moderate to large dose of Fructose added to it, often with an added dose of salt to cover part of the sweetness and make it less noticeable. Grab your Catsup bottle, your Spicy Salsa and your factory baked bread and read the label. Unless you are lucky or a careful shopper every one of them has added Fructose that over rides the satiety centers of the brain by stimulating the reward centers and causing the consumer to consume more than their body needs to keep that stimulation going.

In a non addicted brain the response to a low dose is large but as you become addicted a low dose has a much lower response requiring a constant increase to get the same reward signal.

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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 13 Feb 2016, 14:22:13

Thus the rise of Diabecity. A term used in a recent book to chronicle the close relation of obesity and diabetes. Not to mention that sugar is also very bad in terms of cancer for various reasons.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby PeakOiler » Sat 13 Feb 2016, 14:26:15

I'm an example of a Type II diabetic that is thin. On my low carb diet (less than 200 g total carbs/day), I've been having trouble gaining weight! I'm still about 160 pounds standing 5' 11". I would like to gain about five pounds.

Genetics is another important determining factor.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby dissident » Sun 14 Feb 2016, 10:33:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PeakOiler', 'I')'m an example of a Type II diabetic that is thin. On my low carb diet (less than 200 g total carbs/day), I've been having trouble gaining weight! I'm still about 160 pounds standing 5' 11". I would like to gain about five pounds.

Genetics is another important determining factor.


But the shift of the Type II diabetes occurrence to younger ages (e.g. teenagers are becoming full Type II, not Type I, diabetics) indicates additional glycemic and chemical stress. The genetics are important but not the causal variable in the obesity epidemic.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Wed 17 Feb 2016, 02:53:09

I'm on day two of a radically, (for me), different diet. It started when I went for an initial meeting with my New Primary Care Provider, to get a physical, and was immediately stuck in an ambulance and sent off to the emergency room. My blood pleasure was 250/180! 8O

Anyway to make a long story short, I have terrible lipids, high blood pressure, and overweight (but not quite Obese). Fortunately, all the other blood work, and ekg's are boringly normal. Unfortunately, I can't handle statins, and I would really like to get off my new blood pressure meds as soon as possible.

So I researched various and diets/lifestyles and decided to try "The Paleo Cure" by Chris Kresser. For the first 30 days, you eliminate: all dairy, all grains, all seed and vegetable oils, all "packaged" foods, Legumes (except green beans), processed sugars, artificial sweeteners, and alcohol. Basically the entire calorie consumption of the average American today. :lol:

You can eat lots of vegetables, meat (properly raised), eggs, fish (with preference for cold water fish), other seafood, most nuts, Coconut in all it's forms (oil, water, milk, and meat), Olive oil, lard and lots of fruits.

The reason for this first phase is to cleanse your body of modern day poisons, and "reboot" your body. After thirty days you start to introduce some of the "forbidden" foods and evaluate how they affect you. I plan on "testing" butter, fermented dairy, and peanuts first. :) I will probably never "test" gluten, as my wife has Celiac Disease, so it is actually easier for both of us to avoid it.

I have chosen to try this route for several reasons:

1. It will make me more resilient, as I can grow, raise, and catch a large portion of my diet.

2. It matches my ethics; care of the earth, care of people, return the surplus.

3. I no longer support financially Monsanto, and other large scale, poison spreading, soil destroying, dead zone creating, carbon producing, companies.

4. I further reduce my carbon footprint and help regenerate the earth.

5. Finally, the science seems sound, and I believe it will work.

We are also concerned with Dementia. We just happened to tune into a great Japanese documentary on the latest research on prevention and even reversing Dementia. The Paleo diet seems compatible with mitigation efforts. However one the most effective treatments seems to be: Keep moving. Especially, include a one hour CONTINUOUS brisk walk, at least three times per week. We have added this to our routine, even though we are already pretty active.

My goals are to: reduce my BP to the point of going off meds for it, fix my lipids, lose 40 lbs, and prevent Dementia. I'll let you know the results, unless I forget. :?

Anyway, at worst I'll know one more thing that does not work. At best, it improves my already pretty great life.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 17 Feb 2016, 10:23:30

I have come to the conclusion that doing away with carbs is for the most part the best way to stay healthy and especially not gain weight. No only exceptions being fruits and vegetables and legumes.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 18:34:33

https://healthmap.wordpress.com/2017/11 ... ounty-2013
Obesity prevalence by US county. Noticed that the South seems to have the highest prevalence
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 18:48:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'h')ttps://healthmap.wordpress.com/2017/11/07/obesity-prevalence-by-county-2013
Obesity prevalence by US county. Noticed that the South seems to have the highest prevalence


Basic demographics, the south is hot and people drink a lot of sugary soda in hot muggy weather.

Coasters who are health obsessed stick more to diet versions of soda so they don't get as big a sugar spike, but realistically sugar is poisoning them too, just at a slightly slower rate.
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Re: THE Obesity Thread (merged)

Unread postby dissident » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 19:15:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('onlooker', 'h')ttps://healthmap.wordpress.com/2017/11/07/obesity-prevalence-by-county-2013
Obesity prevalence by US county. Noticed that the South seems to have the highest prevalence


Another factor is race (no, I am not being racist). If you overlap the black and aboriginal populations I expect there to be significant correlation with the obesity distribution. This is related to the higher incidence of insulin resistance in both groups.

Insulin resistance is somewhat like sickle cell anemia and malaria. Both blacks (in Africa) and aboriginals lived under calorie challenged conditions. A genetic defect like insulin resistance helps survival.

http://www.research.utoronto.ca/why-do- ... -diabetes/

Sickle cell anemia can be found in Southern Italy due to the presence of malaria. So the genetic defect arises as general human (and not just some racial subset) response to the same stress factor.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9830795
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