[dohboi]

Yes, we are not talking about the same kinds of jobs. But since the at rev most people in most areas through most of the millennia were 'employed' on the land, and there can still be many 'jobs' available there.

And there is all sorts of 'consumption' that doesn't require lots of materials. Once you have enough people supplying enough food and basic necessities, the rest can be either teachers or students or writers or entertainers, etc. We just have to get away from the idea that raping the earth and raping society of its community structure is what our economy should ever be centered around.

But unless we have some kind of universal revelation that Ibon is hoping for, we will likely just go on exploiting ourselves and the earth, in the process, turning both into toxic offal.

[ennui2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('h2', '
')personally I blame the excesses on the sociopathic youth, where they were raised by tv, cable, and now 'smart' (sic) phones...

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'Y')es, we are not talking about the same kinds of jobs. But since the at rev most people in most areas through most of the millennia were 'employed' on the land, and there can still be many 'jobs' available there.

[Shaved Monkey]

Organopónicos

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shaved Monkey', 'O')rganopónicos

[dohboi]

There is lots of opportunity for urban ag, and this is an area that is already rapidly developing in many cities; but yes, some people will have to be enticed (preferably) to live further afield. People have lived in the country with limited services for millennia. In Cuba during the special period, they enticed many people back to farms by guaranteeing wages similar to those of doctors for farmers. After all, doctors only keep us alive (sometimes) if we happen to be sick; farmers keep us alive every single day!

Sharon Astyk in "Nation of Farmers" and Richard Heinberg in the linked essay, among others, have written about this. http://www.resilience.org/stories/2006- ... on-farmers

No one is saying any of this will be easy or painless, for X's sake. Just perhaps slightly easier than mass starvation and near universal unemployment.

During the depression people were put to work on rural projects of various sorts all over the country. It's been done before, it can be done again.

And of course we could change the work week to 30 hours or even 25, still guaranteeing full health coverage, and we would quickly be back to (real) full employment.

Our 'economic' problems are mostly the result of the way we have chosen to structure the economy to benefit mostly the rich and f everyone and everything else.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', ' ')People have lived in the country with limited services for millennia. During the depression people were put to work on rural projects of various sorts all over the country. It's been done before, it can be done again.

[ennui2]

Astyk herself mostly lives off her husband's living. You really can't earn much of a living from farming.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'Y')ou really can't earn much of a living from farming.

[ennui2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'Y')ou really can't earn much of a living from farming.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I') guess that's why there are so many millionaire farmers out here in farmland.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', 'B')TW "farmers" have the lowest life expectancy of any profession, probably due to the exposure to pesticides.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')here are no services in most of rural America anymore. All the small towns are ghost towns.

[Shaved Monkey]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ennui2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I') guess that's why there are so many millionaire farmers out here in farmland.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')here are no services in most of rural America anymore. All the small towns are ghost towns.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shaved Monkey', ' ')My wife worked for a stock broker for a while in a largeish rural town,farmers would come in in sweaty, dirty tattered clothes, and buy a $1mill of shares.

[ralfy]

In capitalist systems, efficiency means greater productivity at the same or lower costs, and that in turn means more goods and services available. But to profit from sales of goods and services, there has to be more consumers with more money to buy or pay for them. And that can only happen if there are more jobs.

[dohboi]

You re-populate the country, services will follow. And if you plan a bit, you can have a better chance of the people and the services gettin there at about the same time. People are moving back to the country and to small towns all the time. It's not just a one way street toward the city.

Again, is it easy?

No.

Is it better than massive unemployment and starvation?

I kinda think so. But ymmv.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'Y')ou re-populate the country, services will follow.

[dohboi]

en wrote: "Astyk herself mostly lives off her husband's living"

I hadn't hear that. Do you have some link on it, or is that just your wag?

"When would this happen?"

Look, it all almost certainly isn't going to happen. But people have moved back to the land for various reasons in various numbers and waves in various places over the millennia. Yeah, probably everyone is just going to die in situ as things collapse. The point is that a tiny bit of planning could make things a lot less horrific for at least some people. But planning is 'socialist,' so, yes, all but the top .001% are almost surely going to die slow excruciating deaths and most of those who remain living will envy the dead. Is that grim enough for you, or should I continue?