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Technocracy

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 17:02:33

I will repeat the tenets of a Technocracy-Utopia as our friendly moderator called it (I like the term by the way :)
It has nothing to do with communism, it has everything to do with the perception that structure serves a higher purpose and that the basis of all existence Within this system anyone is allowed to participate or not participate (autonomy), provided he pays back (reciprocity principle), does not hurt others (non-maleficence), benefits others (beneficence). The 4 values (i.e. except reciprocity) are the core ethical values of my profession and science (medicine) which I embrace not only as a professional, but as an individual/citizen.

Such a system would seek unification and global awareness. The material aspect of the system (i.e. the energy currency was dealt with previously) and will not repeat it here.
My personal viewpoints and why I switched from a free market advocate to the thesis I advocate had to do with an unbiased assessment of the theory of economical systems particularly von Misses (a free market advocate) who was my "prophet" till recently. A few years ago I was exposed to the ideas of John Maynard Keynes, through the eyes of his disciple John Kenneth Galbraith ("History of Money", "Culture of Contentment"). While researching a statistical issue for my PhD ... I delved into the mathematical economics/finance literature and became aware of the work of Herman Dale and other Steady State Economicias. Layed out in mathematical terms, the fallacies of the current system become extremely irritating (especially the physical implausibility of the Cobbs Douglas production curves). I did read upon technocracy while researching the Depression (out of curiosity, according to the classical and neoclassical economics such a melt down should not have happened) and since I am a scientist ... I could not but accept the principles it endorsed. It still falls short of my expectations, and hence I present my view on things:

Axioms - Observations-Empirical and Scientific Laws
(1) What holds any physical system together is energy. Energy is needed to grow maintain structure and advance to a higher level of organization.
(2) In a closed thermodynamic system (i.e. planet Earth) energy is provided by a free source, actually a nuclear fission reactor, called sun. Mineral forms of energy may exist (i.e. uranium) or can be reduced to (uranium->plutonium conversion) but the feed stock was provided by someone else (call it God, Big Bang, or whatever you want to call it)
(3) No form of energy is ever produced by a human or anyone else; energy is merely transformed to disorganised states. Uncontrolled transformation leads to entropy. Controlled transformation lead to the emergence of structure in a sub-system of the overall global system and entropy in everything else
(4) None can have claims over energy because they cannot produce them. Energy was provided for free by the universe (even though we have to dig for it) and the actual flux is finite. No human or machine action can increase energy above and beyond the total maximum afforded by (2)
(5) No structured system exists without a physical basis. That system can be natural (i.e. life, ecosystems) or artificial (your laptop/PC) but a physical basis is a prerequisite for existence
(6) Since physical systems need materials and energy, different systems will inevitably competing for the same amount of energy. Energy appropriation is a zero sum game . Maximizing the flux of energy allocated to any subsystem of the global system leads to increased structure (or increased numbers) of that system to the detriment of everything else


Human Activity in an isolated thermodynamic system
(1) Any man made system (i.e. machine, other humans, societies) havs to compete for energy with everything else. The material level basis of any man made systems (especially its structure) is restrained by the energy fluxes in item (2) of the previous section and how much of that flux he can control within the limitations of the global system the structures exist.
(2) It is theoretically possible and practically feasible given computing machines and mathematical tools to estimate how much of that energy has to be diverted out of the ecosystem to support any desired level of human activity. The parameters necessary invovle both fixed (i.e. amount of solar radiation, non renewable energy sources) and controllable (population level, material aspects of living) quantities. Calculations can be extended in space and time (in the future)
(3) Such calculations are meaningless as isolated numbers. They can guide human activity when embedded in a system of ethical values


System of Values
(1) We set the aforementioned goals for any individual human, perceived as a sentient material being above everything else in creation but subservient to it:
(-) to understand natural phenomena
(-) to control natural phenomena to the degree affordable by the laws of physics
(-) to nurture the physical basis of human existence since sentience flows from it and understand the "why", "where" and "how" of intelligence, human nature and universe. Physical encompasses both body and "soul" which emerges from the body.
(-) to create higher structured forms of organizations which involve humans machines and other sentient and sub-sentient forms of existence in the universe
Items in (1) are seen as descriptive and not prescriptive rules for fulfilling humanity's mission.
(Side note, the words for people still remaining in the English language are: a) "human" from the Latin word "humus" (earth) and b) derivatives of the word Greek word "anthropos" (i.e. anthropology, misanthrope etc) which means the "being who looks at the sky" i.e. at the stars. Isn't this amazing? Earth, with a purpose? (I think the ancients were on to something)
(2) It should be the goal of any man made system (machines, communities, assemblies of humans+machines, society) to advance, maintain and propagate the individual goals set forth in (1) till the end of time . These goals are embodied in the structure and organization of these complex man made systems and hence heavily depended on their material basis
(3) Any man made system should make efficient use of the potentially available energy in the global system it is embedded into, since the fulfillment of its goals always comes to the expense of someone or something else (you can if you want to define the "everything else" as the ecosystem)
(4) Any energy appropriation that does directly or indirectly advance the individual goals set forth in (1) and the program in (2) qualifies as inefficient use. To select between 2 or more individual or societal lines of action, use the energy minimization criterion
(5) Any individual or collective activity that can be performed with minimal energy input, or any activity that will lead to better utilization of available energy should be considered efficient and promoted. Minimal is a quantitative definition, and requires both political and technical decisions to be made
(6) Machines and humans have distinct roles. Humans as naturally occurring sentient beings take precedence over machines. The latter have a role only to support human individual and collective activity

Organizing principles of human societies
It is felt that the best way to organize human societies is along the line of a Technocracy defined as bottom up structured assemblies of humans and machines, with different and complementary roles.
1. Machines provide, humans guide.
2. If there exist system support activities that are necessary but cannot be provided by machines the following principles should be used as a rough guide:
• Set forth a research program that might lead to the potential substitution in the future
• Use a forum of direct participatory democracy to assign individuals to these roles for the minimum possible amount of time
3. A direct participatory democratic process, sets forth general goals for the Technocracy that are subservient to the individual goals. It seems prudent to restrict those decisions as those falling under the “advance, maintain, propagate” category.
4. No direct participatory process can force an individual to adopt goals that are in contrast with the individual system of values set forth in (1)
5. No individual should refuse to participate in system supporting activities of the Technocracy. He owns his existence to other human beings that were supported by the system and hence has to repay the system (and the other individuals who indirectly supported him) . “Quid pro quo” is in the form of participation in the democratic process, and system supporting services. Individual pays back the system, the system provides for the individuals. Reciprocity extends in space and time
6. Any individual can set forth his own set of goals conforming to (1). A key role of the social system is to provide a wide range of choices for individuals to assist the individual to find his or her personal goals. Selecting a set of goals is an individual’s duty to his or herself and his own business. Technocracy cannot have any saying in this process, unless the goals of an individual limit the ability of other individuals to achieve their own goals.
7. Decision making in Technocracy is a two step process:
Which action to take? i.e. a political decision
How to implement it? i.e. a technical decision
Political actions are a concern of the whole Technocracy, whereas technical decisions are left to the people with knowledge of specific arts and or sciences. Technical decisions are subservient to political decisions which are subservient to the democratic process. When a conflict of interest and goals is perceived as stemming from a technical decision, arbitration is through direct participatory democracy

In reference to the Centauri game ....
It is most likely that any body of people/machines that embraces these principles will refrain from participating in a competitive game (the situation in the game), unless its existence is challenged. If its existence is not challenged, it will likely observe the other players destroy themselves (sounds like the Prime Directive in Star Trek I know). If it is challenged the most likely outcome is that they will destroy the other players (if their techno /knowledge basis is a match) with the way least disruptive to the global system. In reality, they will probably disrupt the opponent basis to the points where they can no longer be a threat. That extent will likely be determined on the grounds of political and technical arguments (as I explained before)
Any non-aggresionist life style can potentially be Technocratic, so the Ecologists ... are actually Technocratists at their first of evolution OR simply Technocrasists who made the decision to use simple machineries.
Out of curiosity ... are there any scenarios in the game that the two civilizations end up co-existing?
Back to the real world:
Technocracy will not have gotten ourselves into this mess, but then it would not consider SUVs worthwhile? What is the point of making something that takes you from point A to point B in the least efficient way?
How would such a civilization respond to PO?
The response would be one of immediate powerdown and selection of other energy sources (I do not think they would have gotten in that mess to begin with)
Are there any sects of such people in this world?
Yes ... in academia, the open source movement, the arts and quite likely in everyday life, people who cherish thinking and understanding and culture and only "feed" on energy to advance, maintain and propagate their goals.
How would they respond to PO : they already have (or will if they find out). They powered down as individuals and try and alert others.
What will happen to them on our way to collapse (if ever).
They will either respond like the scholars who died in the fire of the Alexandria Library, or Archimeded who was killed by the Roman aggressors, or will act like Archimedes a few years prior to that (invented parabolic solar mirrors) or like the Scientists and Engineers who worked on the Manhattan project .... Either way, a choice has to be made ... and they are the only people who will make such choice on ethical grounds
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 17:39:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ommunism relies on science. One of the cores of it's ideology is the materialsm. That is philosophy that encourages scientific research and goes against any system based on belief. Religous people were ridiculed and organised religion was blamed for slowing down progress and serving no usefull purpose, while attemping to influence society. Because any sort of belief system was ridiculed, science didn't have limits, nobody would protest human cloning under

I do not want to start a flame war here, but 1) either you have no real scientific background or 2) you received scientific training but only stuck to th e technical aspect of it.
Any science has (1) an organised basic belief system (we call that first principles or axioms in mathematics) (2) a propositional language (quantitative or quantitiative) used to summarize results and render predictions (3) a methodology to prove/disprove statements of truth using either experiment or reasoning (hence I make no distinction between deductive and inductive processes). The methodology is both inclusive (i.e. what is permitted) or exclusive (what is frawned upon).
The way science works (and this is sharp contrast to religion) is to both build up based on the basic tenets, and drill down to replace those tenets with other more minimalistic principles. Science follows other principles as well (some of the scientific fields like Medicine actually come with a set of ethical principles) but the basic rule is that anything that can be proven or disproven goes.
So science cannot go against belief .... a core belief system exists in any scientific field. Science and religion exist in orthogonal planes in space for most scientists. Some scientists have additional belief systems, but it generally makes for bad science if you try to prove or disprove the existence of extra-scientific principles like the existence of God.
However even the most hard core Christian physicists would argue that Schroedinger's uncertainty is due to god or devil, and try to come up with a mathematical expression for a devine or develish force field. Scientists never burnt religious people, it was always the other way around. And the most recent example is the Soviet mistreatment of Biology and the imposition of Lysenko's (who denied the existence of the evolutionary events in biology) pseudoscience and the resulting famine of the 30s-40s.
I find it interesting that you argue against technocracy since it goes against individual monetary freedom and hence you recoil in shock when an environment adopts the anything goes (that does not hurt human beings) in biological research.
My take on cloning:
1) waste of time and money
2) there other promising techniques to achieve the same goals

Cells are not equal to humans ....
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Unread postby Licho » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 18:36:30

I really like the idea of technocracy, and I would like to see it implemented. But there is huge gap between abstract ideas about moral values and between real world implementation. Implementation would likely be very similar to communism .. if not, please describe how would technocracy be different? Only differences I see is in core of the ideology, not in the way, how is the world "run". ..

Communism was also appealing on "reciprocity" .. you were expected to work for society, because society was working for you. Colective spirit and teamwork was encouraged from childhood. But in the end, everyone had his network of friends, and state was generally felt like disconnected entity. That's why there was so huge corruption and so low worker efficiency. People didn't see direct connection between their work and society or their gains. You cannot expect all people (especially low educated with manual jobs) to act according to this rule. It didnt work here even after 40 years of brainwashing..

Regarding communism and science. My post was not clear. I meant, that core of ideology is materialism = belief that everything is caused and can be explained through matter. That's why other belief system, that believed in "other words" were ridiculed and mistreated.
Science had the prime authority (or after communistic ideology), religion was not important and was never allowed to influence people (for example in debates about abortion).

Lysenko was clearly failure of the system in Soviet union (correct ideology was too important during early stalinism) - but pseudoscience exists everywhere, you will find bad science and bad scientist everywhere, but it leads to disaster only under centrally controlled system, which is not closely tied with results..
Last edited by Licho on Wed 06 Jul 2005, 20:28:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby agni » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 18:56:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'Y')es, but they woudln't work in technocracy - why should they? Only by forcing them to do (as EnergySpin suggest) you can make the work done in environmnent that lacks any incentives to work.. You have to make forced labor..


Right, but the labor is forced under capitalism as well, so that doesn't seem like a good argument against technocracy. People don't clean toilets due to the financial incentive. They clean toilets because otherwise they can't eat. The job is forced under all systems.


That's what a financial incentive is for. People stopped eating currency ever since we moved away from the barter system. :)
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Unread postby agni » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 19:27:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '
')How can we stabilize our growth if there is no other option besides capitalism, because everything else is communism?


I think stabilizing growth is a bad idea because that basically means stopping all progress. And when that happens we might as well be dead.

-A
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Unread postby Licho » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 19:54:10

http://www.technocracy.ca/simp/benefits.htm

Benefits of technocracy on this page look almost like old propaganda.. all of this was true (or supposedly true) in communism, except "non-transferable currency"..
Things, like right to free healthcare, education, housing and other social rights were in constitution, but civil rights and freedoms were somehow missing in that document..

I had to laugh when I read "Safe, comfortable, Modern Housing" .. this is the phrase they would use to describe those ugly boxes that are now everywhere.. Pannel houses inherited from commie era - some mass produced concrece pannels assembled into 5-20 story buildings. They are all ugly, all look the same, all have central heating/water heating, they are clumped together in blocks with some support facilities like shops, recreation, and healthcare and education facilities and mass transit hub. It's cheap and very fast to build it, it's efficient, relatively comfortable, but very undesirable :-)
Nobody want's to live there.. all look the same, even interior structure is looking similar everywhere, now they at least painted those ugly boxes, so you can pick whether you want "gray classic" or some "extravagant" blue, purple or violet box to live in.. I see two "clumps" of these monsters from my window as a living reminder, how efficient solution looks like..

If you want to see how ugly it can get: http://www.paladix.cz/clanky/sidliste-2002.html
Uniformity of those boxes caused many dangerous social effects, like widespread vandalism of kids (grafitty everywhere) and general carelesness of people living there towards others..
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 20:29:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'I') believe, that post PO, more central planning will be neccesary, but that doesnt mean we should scrap democracy and market system completely.

Nationalizing some companies and regulating market more should suffice. Oil price regulation and rationing would shield economy from most of the harm. Growth can continue in non-oil sectors (nothing should stop growth in IT and communications industry for example).


This is my first instinct too -- keep the current system as much as possible, but modify where the distortions are causing danger. The model would be something more along the lines of France, Japan or China, i.e. countries with a mixed economy, where capitalism is complemented by strong industrial policy. Redoing the entire system from scratch is too difficult and risky.

One area where technocratic ideas seem very useful is in the development of high yield energy sources like Lunar Space Power (LSP). Since the power flows in space are so huge, capitalism may hinder their development. No capitalist (or even government?) wants to invest in an energy source which has the potential of providing such huge amounts of power that the price of power drops to nothing. The situation is analogous to suddenly discovering an oil deposit which is so huge that you can use it to flood the oil market, and drop the price to $0.10 a barrel. Capitalism won't develop that deposit, and in fact, will do everything in its power to prevent it from being developed.
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 20:37:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('agni', 'I') think stabilizing growth is a bad idea because that basically means stopping all progress. And when that happens we might as well be dead.


On the whole, I agree with you, and I am not opposed to growth per se. IMO, the ultimate destiny of mankind is to grow beyond the earth, into the solar system. Nevertheless, it is sometimes necessary to stabilize growth. You can't grow inside a closed space colony. Also, certain types of unchecked growth are not in our interest -- such as growth in ozone destroying gases, greenhouse gases, toxic wastes, population, private car production, fish harvests etc. We have to make a distinction between good growth and bad growth.
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 20:46:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n the whole, I agree with you, and I am not opposed to growth per se. IMO, the ultimate destiny of mankind is to grow beyond the earth, into the solar system. Nevertheless, it is sometimes necessary to stabilize growth. You can't grow inside a closed space colony. Also, certain types of unchecked growth are not in our interest -- such as growth in ozone destroying gases,

In the steady state economics ... it is better to speak about development not growth. There are limits to growth .... but it is the responsibility of the sentient beings to explore them and decide whether they should be respected or not.
Yes the future of humanity must be in the stars .... but what form of government is the best one?
Whenever democracy and money went head to head ... one or the other lost (usually democracy). There are other aspects of the human growth or development beyond money. In any case ............ growth is about to end! :twisted:
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 20:54:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Licho', 'h')ttp://www.technocracy.ca/simp/benefits.htm

Benefits of technocracy on this page look almost like old propaganda.. all of this was true (or supposedly true) in communism, except "non-transferable currency"..
Things, like right to free healthcare, education, housing and other social rights were in constitution, but civil rights and freedoms were somehow missing in that document..


I'm tending to agree with you Licho. I'm having a real hard time understanding the difference between technocracy and communism. Can anybody succinctly describe the most important difference?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you want to see how ugly it can get: http://www.paladix.cz/clanky/sidliste-2002.html
Uniformity of those boxes caused many dangerous social effects, like widespread vandalism of kids (grafitty everywhere) and general carelesness of people living there towards others..


No doubt. The same problems happened with public housing in the U.S. But I'm still skeptical. Why is it that Linux and Wikipedia aren't crappy and ugly? They're being built on a non-capitalist model. The difference seems to be that people themselves build Linux/Wikipedia, and thus they build it beautifully to suit their own needs and tastes. It's the fact that the bureaucrats do the design and implementation that screws everything up. Why doesn't the government just set basic parameters to ensure energy efficiency (i.e. walkability, mass transit), provide the land and money, and then let the people design their own arrangements?
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 21:04:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m tending to agree with you Licho. I'm having a real hard time understanding the difference between technocracy and communism. Can anybody succinctly describe the most important difference?

Difference is in the decision making process ...
There are political decisions decided by direct participatory democracy (i.e. you do not elect someone to make the decisions for you, you participate in all the decisions). This is similar to the pre-dictatorship situation in ancient Rome and the Athenian democracy before the Peloponessian war. You were expected to participate in the public decision making process and that was a big part of everyday life (I believe the public meetings of all citizens were once a week, could be wrong though)
Technical decisions (basically how to do what the public decided) are delegated to experts. The system is a bottom up hierearchy with local communities making their own decisions about their locale and forwarding the decisions higher up.
The whole decision making system if implemented would look like a biological nervous system.
Contrast this with communism: the is the prime entity. Delegates the decision and deals them top down, forces the individual into certain predetermined shapes.
There are two Technocratist utopias that have been portrayed in the media (actually in the same series). Both Star Treck and the Borgs were Techno-utopias with different emphasis on the machine/human dichotomy.
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 21:09:18

ES, can you describe how technocracy would eliminate the problem of undesirable, crappy housing under communism?
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 21:46:22

Simple ... (but I will not apologise for the communists - they got what they deserved)
It is up to humans to make the distinction between political and technical.
As I said in my little "manifesto", the goals of any human is to explore and understand. Architectural patterns (have you read Alexander's : The timeless way of building http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 8?v=glance)
is one of the things that advance the human experience .hence they fall under the "political" decision making process. If you think that a patio looks nice ... or a certain colour ... then you could have it, provided that you were reasonable within your wishes. I do not see that any system could provide for anyone 4500ft sq homes without destroying the ecosystem (even if we had the energy to build and heat and ac all those homes)
The key point is how to translate political to technical decisions. To that as where to get the energy Im clueless (as the original technocratists).

I would agree that the original movement was bordering to socialism/communism (there is an implicit assumption that the majority of the decisions would be made by the people qualified to do so).
I have a different definition: the subsumption of ALL activities to the political process which is seen to advance the goals of the individual ad infinitum. In order to do that ... a sustainable society has to be built ... a society that harnesses and direct energy, through a direct participatory democracy. This can be achieved (even at a global scale) by the Internet nowadays.
In short Technocracy (and my definition of the monetary and sociopolitical system were posted today - I do not want to associated with Technocracy Inc :) ) is a direct participatory democratic system where man guides machine. The goal is the cultural (not material) advancement of the human being subsuming science and technology and economy to the democratic process (not the state). Sounds Jeffersonian? Maybe!
The economic system (or market) is seen as supporting society not vice versa (we are seen as consumers), and the market system that is most compatible with such a society is the steady state one so ...
'
A few links to general sustainability issues and steady state economics
http://www.iisd.org/
http://www.steadystate.org/
An excellent article from the university of Tubingen on the issue of dematerialization (kind of reviews the argument that the economy has been dematerializing and moving to a domain where the prime exchangeable "product" is cultural goods: http://www.tinbergen.nl/discussionpapers/00068.pdf
A critical appraisal of the work of the Vanderbilt professor Georgescu Roegen (the first modern neo-classical economist with H Dale to raise questions about the modern system)
Another excellent paper from Tufts exploring energy/ecology/growth
http://www.ase.tufts.edu/gdae/publicati ... onment.PDF
(check Chapter VIII Implications for macroeconomic theories)
Will send more links if you want to
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Unread postby Licho » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 22:04:51

Aren't you afraid of direct democracy? In Athens, it was often democratically decided, that someone should simply end his life (or be killed) :-)

Likely result of direct democracy without limits would be extremely populistic policy and terror of the majority..

And regarding houses - I think that under original technocracy concept, it would fall to "technical" branch - how to implement political decision to build new houses.. (perhaps even the decision to build new houses would be purely technical in original concept!)

It's highly technical problem after all - you need to have houses that conserve energy, provide infrastructure for people living there (transportation/services) and do it with lowest possible energy/material costs (best done with mass production).
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 22:07:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy is it that Linux and Wikipedia aren't crappy and ugly? They're being built on a non-capitalist model. The difference seems to be that people themselves build Linux/Wikipedia, and thus they build it beautifully to suit their own needs and tastes.

People who build Linux already live in a Techno-utopia.
They have set the limits to what they want to consume (most of them keep another job) and have an alternative lifestyle of less is more.
Then the can direct their free time to what they want to do the most.
In a Techno-utopian society they would not even have to keep a crappy job to pay the bills.
I will give you another example from the US. The academic (medical) community. Salaries are 1/2-1/5 of what you can make outside the academia and often you work under conditions that are horrendous. (Have you seen Jackson Memorial at Miami? Hospitals in 3rd world countries are much better - yet that hospital produces outstanding research and delivers health care to poor people in Miami). Why do people stay there? It is not the working hours and not the money. They have decided that less is more (even though less in that case is more than the avg US salary) and adhere to different standards. I know medical doctors that work for the VA medical system, world class researchers .... have written the textbooks and redefined medical knowledge ... yet they still work for the VA. Why? Academic Freedom, no need to go after the $ or make compromises.
So ... do not get puzzled . If I were you, I would find the book : "Culture of Contentment" by John Kenneth Galbraith to see why the corporate climate is wrong and fails us. See how corporate bureocracies are no different from communist bureaucracies ...
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 22:20:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ren't you afraid of direct democracy? In Athens, it was often democratically decided, that someone should simply end his life

I am more afraid of indirect democracies and plutocracies.
Do you disagree that direct democracy is the best form of democracy?


Beautiful is not equivalent to wasteful. The norms of beauty in architecture ... are always functional and not wasteful. Alexander was a great architectural researcher ... his ideas have even influenced software engineering.
And yes ... the monstrocities in NA and much of the Western Europe would not have been built under Technocracy and that;s not because they are not mass produced (there are approximately 30 versions of your basic McMansion here)

In summary and do not get me wrong I not necessarily agree or disagree- the free market experiment either ends here, or civilization dies with it:
1) The future will lead a shift of power from the individual to the collective. There is no company that can save the planet from PO or peak energy or global warming. The tragedy of the commons applies here (aka Jevons paradox). Global problem needs global actions and the best way to avoid that is by concerted action. You can check current research on World3 global models .... individual free market action would be way too unfocused now. However the individual will play the biggest role. This is why Chevron is begging us to stop driving! Kind of uncapitalistic to ask for your consumer to curtail the use of your product
2) It is in the best interest of the individual to ensure that MORE democracy NOT less democracy accompanies that shift
3) The best way that no police state emerges from that shift (since it does not happen in a vacuum - we do not start with a blank slate but with power hungry corporations controlling governments) is for grassroot action
4) We do have one last chance to revive the ideals of the 18th century revolution and a pretty good incentive (known as PO). And we have learnt some pretty good lessons on how grassroots movement get screwed by individuals and parties
5) Free market will not provide the best mechanism to avoid global energy problems - it might come down to energy rationing, or some other scheme like in WWII - I do not know. WWII was won by communities supporting strong governments, not corporations.
6) Will it lead to a global government? Who knows! Without active participation ... fascism is likely and dieoff is certain. The dynamics of dieoff assume selfish individuals ... feedback mechanisms using global knowledge avoid disaster
7) As in WWII, energy profiteering ... can have dire consequences
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Unread postby Tyler_JC » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 23:40:38

To go back to the game...

The scientists were NOT communists. They were Technocrats. And we know now that Technocracy and Communism are two seperate (and equally stupid) ideologies.

And yes, you could have two civilizations win together, but I would never allow this to happen. I always want a homogenous society and allowing that pathetic little halfling Lal to maintian control of even one city is totally unacceptable to me. If I am to be victorious, I want a total victory. And as soon as Planet Busters (nukes) are available, I am not afraid to wipe out the inferior civilizations with them.

The solution to PO is not MORE complexity, it's less complexity.

Don't build more bureaucracies and hire more government workers. Downsize. Follow the only proven method for collapse evasion and cut back.

Complexity causes problems. Bacteria are happy. People take prozac to fill the empty void in their lives. See where I'm going with this?

The Amish and the Hippies have it right, simple is beautiful.

As a solution to the current problems I suggest rounding up everyone who disagrees with the "simple is beautiful" philosophy and converting them and all of their material goods into bio-fuel. Also, those people whose religions encourage them to reproduce to the point of overpopulation can be added to that bio-fuel machine if they refuse to give up their silly dogma.

I suggest we start with Hollywood and the Rap "artists" on MTV.

Even better, force the actors to make movies glorifying simplicity and demonizing waste. After they fufill their usefulness, we can throw them in The Machine.

What? :twisted:
"www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
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Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 23:56:53

You will all be assimilated!!!!
Thanks Tyler for understanding the difference between T and C!
I am the Borg kind of Technocrat not the Star Treck one and yes I agree Hollywood is only useful as biofuel/Human Power(TM)
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Unread postby agni » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 01:59:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '
')
On the whole, I agree with you, and I am not opposed to growth per se. IMO, the ultimate destiny of mankind is to grow beyond the earth, into the solar system. Nevertheless, it is sometimes necessary to stabilize growth. You can't grow inside a closed space colony. Also, certain types of unchecked growth are not in our interest -- such as growth in ozone destroying gases, greenhouse gases, toxic wastes, population, private car production, fish harvests etc. We have to make a distinction between good growth and bad growth.


Of course, by growth I meant growth of desirable things like erections, not tumors :lol:

-A
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Unread postby venky » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 07:24:15

I find the concept of a technocracy fascinating and I am interested in learning more.

I want to talk about two technocratic societies that I have come across in popular literature. One is in the 'Time Machine' by HG Wells and the other is in the 'Lucky Starr' Novels by Isaac Asimov.

In the Time Machine we have world condition deteoriating so badly by the late 20th century, that four of the most prominent scientists from across the planet come together to form the World Science Governing Board (WSGB). Conditions were apparently so bad that national leaders voluntarily gave up power to the WSGB; the author then describes a glorious interval, War outlawed, disease cured, harmony throughout the world. But unfortunately, there was no method of succession inherent in the system so with the death of the founding members, two rival factions come to power in the North and South and mankind is once again embroiled in a planetary war.

In the Isaac Asimov novels, mankind has spread to around 50 planets across the galaxy, formerly Earth colonies but now independent. Infact some of these planets are extremely hostile to the mother planet which they look down upon as socially primitive. On Earth is a powerful body called the Council of Science of which the hero Lucky Star is a member. This body though not supreme plays a major role in the administration of the Solar System and security. Although the need the Council is accepted in a galaxy where presumably technology is extremely important, the non-representative nature of the body is resented by many on earth. In particular there is a Senator Svenson whose main aim is to break the council.
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