[SchroedingersCat]

I will be the first to agree that there is more energy on, in and reaching the earth than we can ever use. The problem is how to use it. What we need to do is close the loop.

By 'close the loop' I mean find a way to take the waste from one system and use it as input in another. This is the concept behind a breeder reactor, but I think it can be applied to any system.

When I was younger, we used to make carb chicken. We'd wrap some chicken parts in foil and put it on top of our car engine before taking a long drive. By the time we got to the beach, the chicken was done to perfection. We used the waste heat of the engine to perform a useful task.

This concept needs to be applied to EVERY system we use. By being accustomed to such cheap energy, we have allowed waste to become an accepted part of every system. EROEI is as much about waste as it is about work.

Entropy may be the law but we don't have to help it along.

[Nike62]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SchroedingersCat', '
')What we need to do is close the loop.
By 'close the loop' I mean find a way to take the waste from one system and use it as input in another.
This is the concept behind a breeder reactor, but I think it can be applied to any system.

[Doly]

There is a limit to how much you can close the loop. Thermodinamics states that you can never put to use all of the waste heat.

Efficiency, however, is a great thing.

[jockc]

How do you accurately identify what is waste and what only *appears* to be waste. If I captured all the waste heat from my appliances, well in the summer that's good. In the winter it might raise my heating bill.

The idea is good, recapture that waste heat, but sometimes that heat might be more important than we think.

[JoeW]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'T')here is a limit to how much you can close the loop. Thermodinamics states that you can never put to use all of the waste heat.

Efficiency, however, is a great thing.

[Caoimhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'T')here is a limit to how much you can close the loop. Thermodinamics states that you can never put to use all of the waste heat.

Efficiency, however, is a great thing.

[Starvid]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Caoimhan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeW', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'T')here is a limit to how much you can close the loop. Thermodinamics states that you can never put to use all of the waste heat.

Efficiency, however, is a great thing.

[anomaly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SchroedingersCat', 'I') will be the first to agree that there is more energy on, in and reaching the earth than we can ever use. The problem is how to use it. What we need to do is close the loop.

By 'close the loop' I mean find a way to take the waste from one system and use it as input in another. This is the concept behind a breeder reactor, but I think it can be applied to any system.

When I was younger, we used to make carb chicken. We'd wrap some chicken parts in foil and put it on top of our car engine before taking a long drive. By the time we got to the beach, the chicken was done to perfection. We used the waste heat of the engine to perform a useful task.

This concept needs to be applied to EVERY system we use. By being accustomed to such cheap energy, we have allowed waste to become an accepted part of every system. EROEI is as much about waste as it is about work.

Entropy may be the law but we don't have to help it along.

[Ranglepung]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Starvid', '
')Of course the heat will eventually escape, but that is not affected by his use of oven or not. If he cooks dinner in his oven he doesn't have to heat his house as much by other means. This is why it is completely useless changing to low energy lamps in an electrically heated house.

[jeffvail]

Sure, we can't "close" the loop, but it is my opinion that working towards that limit will certainly be critical after easy energy...

One way we can do that is to address human waste more efficiently. Shit.

Think about how we process it now: use several gallons of clean drinking water to push it off to a "treatment" plant, where even more energy is required to make it "safe" to flush into our nation's storm drain system and let the effluent flow into the ocean--causing unstable algae growth and threatening marine life. And then we use even more petroleum to make fertilizer, when we've flushed perfectly good fertilizer into the oceans!

Pretty smart system...

There are alternatives: mouldering and composting toilet systems. They are difficult to work with in a centralized and industrialized system, but for a decentralized and sustainable system I think that they are critical. Both systems deal effectively with manure-based pathogens, in the same general way that farmers let steer manure "rot" before applying it to crops: they burn the pathogens to death through composting, or let them gradually eliminate themselves through mouldering. Many cultures have long relied on the nutrient recapture of human waste-based fertilizers. It seems to be our Victorian sensibilities, combined with the desire to centralize santiation and farming sectors (for hierarchal profit), that have nearly eliminated the use of this vernacular technology...

This is certainly an area that needs some work, but I think that the potential is tremendous, especially given our likely future needs. The presence of prescription medications pose a problem that needs to be addressed, and there are probably other issues. But there are already many people working on this "vernacular technology", and anyone considering remodeling or building a farmstead, please consider this as an option:

Sunny John

Humanure Handbook (Joe Jenkins)

~Jeff
www.jeffvail.net

[SchroedingersCat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jeffvail', 'S')ure, we can't "close" the loop, but it is my opinion that working towards that limit will certainly be critical after easy energy...